Physical size of battery

[Pete Arnold]

My Vitesse battery doesn't like the colder weather so I think it's time to change it.  I believe it is a 36 or 39Ah battery but a bit more power for cold weather starting would be better.  Searching online, I've found that I can easily fit a 45Ah battery.  

However, I think a 60Ah battery might physically fit (L 230 x W 170 x H 221mm) - the critical measurement being the 170mm width.  I reckon it should just fit if I make up longer "holding rods" to cope with the greater width and height above that of my present battery.

Has anyone fitted this (physical) size of battery in a Herald/Vitesse?

[Nick Jones]

I've been running "063" batteries in my Vitesse for many years now
207x175x175mm (LxDxH)
VERY common size and available for £10 exchange from my local scrappy.  Present one has done 5 years so far.......

You really shouldn't need anything bigger.

Nick

[bxbodger]

Mine currently has an 027 from a defunct BX diesel- it's what I had lying about when I needed one, it's tight but it does fit.

[nang]

Use the biggest that will fit and that  you can afford.  ;D
Tony.

[rlubikey]

Try Car Battery Wizard to find what will fit in the available space. But as has been said, prices of otherwise similar batteries vary. 063 is very common hence cheap.

[Steve AKA vitessesteve]

If you fit a bigger battery will your charging system be up to keeping full.  An original spec dynamo will not be able to charge up a extra big battery.

I would second Nick comment that 063 will do the job - I have run my Vitesse with modern hifi and lighting with no problem on such a battery.

[Mark Hammond]

vitessesteve wrote:

If you fit a bigger battery will your charging system be up to keeping full.  An original spec dynamo will not be able to charge up a extra big battery.

Why wouldn't it?

M.

[Steve AKA vitessesteve]

1218 wrote:

Why wouldn't it?

M.

The problem can occur and was common in the days before alternators became common place. If a car is used with lights radio fan etc say in winter and has an original dynamo you may find you need to put the battery on a charger overnight in order to be able to start it in the morning.  A bigger battery can give more power (look for cold cranking amps) to start the car useful when it is cold.

Generally the car consumes it electric from the charging system be it dynamo or alternator, that why racing cars can get away with having no battery because they are jump started in the pits. The battery provides the big power for the starter and gets topped up by the charging system.  

[Mark Hammond]

I don't think the size of the battery will affect the charging capability of a dynamo.  Sure, the more ancillaries there are would affect the capability of the dynamo.  This isn't related to battery size though....

M.

[Steve AKA vitessesteve]

Technically it is not the physical size that is the issue it is the amount of electric it has. Battery capacity is measured in amp hours.  Physically bigger batteries tend to have a higher rating. Each dynamo or alternator will have a maximum rate it works at.  So a 45amp alternator will max at 45 amps.  Cars run at a nominal 12v, so that limits the rate a battery can be charged at..  A 90AHr battery would take 90/45 = 2 hours to charge.  Going back to earlier comment a 28A dynamo would take a long time to charge a big battery such as a 140/28 = 5 hours. All this ignores the fact that alternators tend to be more effective, some dynamo produce little or no charging unless the engine revs are high enough.

Winter commuting in a dynamo equipped car can be leave you with a flat feeling come the cold start in the morning - my Vitesse had a herald spec dynamo when I first had it and used every day so I quickly upgraded to a alternator.

Coming back to the Herald in the thread - fit an alternator if you intend driving throu the winter rather than fit a bigger battery.

[Nick Jones]

If more is being taken from the battery than the generator (dynamo or alternator) can put in then the problem is with the capacity of the generator relative to the electrical load, and even the biggest battery will eventually become flat, though it might mask the problem for a while.

The standard dynamo is adequate for a standard car with standard fit electrical equipment, but doesn't have loads in hand for extras.  An alternator also charges better at low engines speeds meaning that the battery is more likely to be fully recharged from a morning cold start after a shortish commute in traffic.

Nick

[Mark Hammond]

Well they were good enough for the colder winters of the 1960's so I don't get why not now......  I don't recall flat batteries being a regular feature of cold winter mornings back then, so long as the charging system and the battery are in good health.  I think that there is far too much emphasis on the essentiality of fitting an alternator.  My reckoning is that an alternator is best if you have a serious amount of electrical ancillaries and yes, a battery that is matched to the dynamo, alternator or whatever is fitted....

We must agree to disagree, I am a purist....   ;)

Mark

[Stu 1986]

I remember seeing period film footage once of cars driving round London during the night once in the 60s, more or less all of them had their side lights lit, and headlights off. I questioned this to my Granddad who was sat with me, and he said that it was to save the batteries because Dynamos couldn't charge very well.

I'm not arguing here, just thought I'd mention this little memory.

[junkuser]

A dynamo, in good condition, will handle all the demands of the standard equipment that came with the car and gave a service life that adequately lasted the expected life of the car.  Cars were not designed to last 50 years.

The only reason I have fitted an alternator is that I only use refurbished second hand items ("junk") where possible and alternators are so much easier to diagnose and repair than dynamos. No special equipment required.

[Nick Jones]

1218 wrote:

Well they were good enough for the colder winters of the 1960's so I don't get why not now......  I don't recall flat batteries being a regular feature of cold winter mornings back then, so long as the charging system and the battery are in good health.  I think that there is far too much emphasis on the essentiality of fitting an alternator.  My reckoning is that an alternator is best if you have a serious amount of electrical ancillaries and yes, a battery that is matched to the dynamo, alternator or whatever is fitted....

We must agree to disagree, I am a purist....   ;)

Mark

In the late 80s I had a completely standard 1200 Herald.  Didn't even have a radio.  I used to commute from Hampton to Kingston (except when it wasn't raining when I rode my bike).  In the winter, with lights, wipers and blower running and low engine rpms in traffic, the battery would be too flat to start the car (and it started easily) after about a week unless it got a longer run in that time.  I worked part-time at a Triumph garage and both dynamo and regulator were checked and found to be "operating to specification".  We swapped the alternator and brackets from a Mk4 Spit we were breaking solving the problem forever, and the car was no longer completely standard, but nevertheless improved.  So indeed we must agree to disagree.

Nick

[nang]

I must be getting really old, I can remember cars with a 6 volt system and of course a generator. You didn't dare try to start the car with the headlights or any other thing turned on. Headlights were mostly like candles anyway. (woot)
Tony.

[Rallyspit]

vitessesteve wrote:

Generally the car consumes it electric from the charging system be it dynamo or alternator, that why racing cars can get away with having no battery because they are jump started in the pits. The battery provides the big power for the starter and gets topped up by the charging system.  

Racing cars do have batteries (generally Varta RedTops), but where regulations allow, the alternator is removed as it saps a couple of bhp. A racing car could easily do an event running entirely from a small 12v battery - it's only powering the ignition system and possibly a "rain light".
Jump starting in the pits is done either because there is no starter motor or to preserve the smaller battery, which may not have the necessary amperage to turn over a high compression engine anyway.

However if you took off a battery and still had the alternator connected the voltage produced would rise considerably and fry your electrics.

If you've got loads of extra electrical equipment, lights, stereo, best advise is to uprate your alternator first - this will allow the engine to generate enough amps without draining the battery. If you've got a high compression engine fit a bigger battery - the alternator won't help you start the car!

[Steve AKA vitessesteve]

Yes you are quite right I meant no starter I think. As you say racers can have very small battery.  Racers need an alternator to power the ignition, engine management etc.