Oil cooler question

[John Bonnett]

I'm fitting an oil cooler to my 1500 engine and I just wondered how critical the plumbing in impeding oil flow. The connections on the cooler come out towards the wheel but to keep the pipe as tight as possible I was going to make a pair of elbows rather than sweeping bends. I'd be interested in your opinions please.

[Beans]

Depends how tight you make the elbows. Just make sure they have a smooth bend without restrictions.
Can't judge on the picture but is there no room for standard elbows? There are some pretty tight elbows available of the shelf.
These are the larger variety, but you'll need different connectors to the adaptor ... edit forgot also available in other angles

[John Bonnett]

892 wrote:

45's are much better than 90's when you talk about flow.

Cheers,
Iain.

yes but does it matter in terms of oil going through the engine?

[GT6 M]

Id be moer worried aboot the size of the hole in them unions.

they are smaller than the oil pump feed pipe, so a restriction is going to be there.
!/2 inch pipe, is 1/2 inch hole,  
but 1/2 inch hydrulic fittings aint,
yours looks like a 3/8th, so a 5/16th hole in it!!

M

[esxefi]

^^wise words.

the plumbing size can refer to the union threads and not the bore.

you need at least 1/2" bore pipes and unions and if the pipes are extra long consider 5/8 bore to reduce pressure loss.

but unless you are racing 1/2" should suffice and most of the oil is diverted through the pressure relief valve anyway.
an engine in good condition doesn't have much leakage and excess pressure from the pump only serves to overheat and thin the oil which is counter intuitive.

50psi is fine.

[Tony68]

Forgive me querying your motivation, but unless you're circuit racing, do you really need one? I fitted one to my tweaked Vitesse and found the oil was being over-cooled, and sludge built up in the cooler. It's actually quite difficult to keep enough throttle open enough of the time to get the oil really hot unless you're lapping a racetrack in something more than a few laps at a time. FWIW my own experience (NOT racing!) is that in the Triumph engines the oil is mostly cooled by the water via the block.

My own personal view is that
(a) an oil-water intercooler is better as it *warms* the oil which is helpful (cold engine oil does not do all that it needs to do). I've seen these advertised
(b) it is more effective to fit a lower temperature water thermostat (land rover 79 degree, for example).
(c) the place where you put an oil temp gauge sensor affects what conclusions you can draw from it.
(d) Unless your oil is actually smoking after a fast run, it probably is *not* getting too hot!
(e) I suspect that many people fit oil collers as I did simply because it's part of the tuning ethos.

As I say, this is my own viewpoint. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has suffered any actual effects traceable to overheating oil.

[Clive]

Me! the 1500 engine is notorious for eating cranks, and an oil cooler is an essential bit of kit on them, even a moderately-hard driven car.
I lost a crank at goodwood as oil pressure sank to zero as it got over-hot. That was no more than 10 mins out on track, and the car was not really highly tuned.

I agree water/oil plates to moderate oil temp are a good idea. I tried to adapt one to fit but failed. May try again on my new car.

[GT6 M]

J had a water cooled cooler,
a 19 row inside a box that took water frae the bottom hose then thru to pump
worked great till the oil cooler split,
an filt me water system up wid a orrid gunge like mayonaise  stuff.

M

[Beans]

892 wrote:

45's are much better than 90's when you talk about flow ...

Difference in pressure loss between a decent 90° and 45° will be negligible.
As long as the radius is the same and smooth.

[JohnD]

Silverback had a an oil-to-water cooler, a Mocal Laminova, under the objective of keeping air out of the under-bonnet and under-car areas.
Picture below.  Note the large sized oil lines, approx twice as big as normal.
This is because flow in a tube depends on the "fourth power of the radius".  In other words, double the radius and flow increases SIXTEEN times, everything else being equal.

If the curvature of a right angle connector is four times the radius or more, the there is almost no pressure loss, so again, the bigger the better.

John

[Tony68]

cliftyhanger wrote:

Me! the 1500 engine is notorious for eating cranks, and an oil cooler is an essential bit of kit on them, even a moderately-hard driven car.
I lost a crank at goodwood as oil pressure sank to zero as it got over-hot. That was no more than 10 mins out on track, and the car was not really highly tuned.

Good point. I recall now that I used to have oil pressure issues when the engine got hot, but haven't had them since the rebuild (6-cyl engine) - maybe I haven't been driving it hard enough lately?  ;)

I had the feeling that where this is a problem it tends to occur *before* the oil is actually over-heating, due to the natural drop in viscosity with temperature. Don't really want to go too far off-topic on the subject of oil pressure, but though 80psi is nice to have when the oil is cool, you surely only need enough to keep the flow through the bearings going (AIUI it's the hydrodynamic pressure in the bearings due to bearing rotation which is important, not the static pressure which simply keeps the flow high enough so that the surfaces are fully wetted), so if the pressure is dropping toward zero it may be a bearing/crank problem rather than an actual oil overheating issue?
But I'm a newby on this forum, so I don't know if this been discussed at all on another thread.

[Clive]

The oil was very hot, but guess it could have been a chicken and egg scenario. However, I would favour a cooler (with thermostat, or oil/water type) on a 1500. Or any other engine driven very hard. It may be unnecessary for many, but like so much in life, it is nice to know it is there!

I think similar discussions have been had many time on here and every other Triumph forum!

[Richard B]

The 1500 punishes the middle main bearing. You want to do everything you can to help it.

[GT6 M]

water cooled oil cooler.
type i used to run till it went tits up

get  yer welding gloves on Clive.









M

[JohnD]

People seem to assume that:
A/ their oil runs too hot
B/ Adding an oil-cooler will be a 'good thing'.

How do they know? Unless you include an oil thermostat, the oil may be too cool, and if you do then the oil cooler will just sit there and do nothing.   And too cold oil is as bad for wear as too hot.
To tell if your oil is too hot you must measure it.  
How hot should it be?  Oil takes a lot longer to heat up than water, so take a run of at least 20 minutes before checking, and include the sort of driving that causes you oil-heat concern.   It should not rise much more than the water temp. so 110C max, preferably 80-100C.

Measuring methods:
Oil temperature gauge - a boss for a sensor can be brazed into the sump, or else use a dipstsick with a sensor on the end.   £100-ish.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/271825412321?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&chn=ps&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108&ff19=0

But you may not want to go to the expense and bother of buying and fitting the gauge.
So, an Infrared temp. gauge gun is a most versatile instrument, usable anywhere.    Prices vary a lot, but £10-60+.   https://www.google.co.uk/#q=infrared+thermometer&tbm=shop

OR, and you only need a one time measure to make a decision, some TempTabs.
These adhesive stickers work by changing colour on a scale to show the greatest temperature it has seen, so useful as you can go for a blast, come back and see how hot it got, not how hot it is after cooling down.   £13 for a pack of ten.  https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/p/self-adhesive-temperature-indicator-strips-pack-of-10-thetem?utm_source=MailingList&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=9+Apr+2015+-+New-in+Quality+Components+%26+Racewear&vat=on

It would be great to see no more posts saying, I think my oil gets too hot, my oil pressure is too low, I fear for my bearings - do I need an oil cooler.
Instead, my oil was getting to 110C, so I got an oil cooler, or even better, I was concerned about the oil temperature, but it never rose above 100, so I'm not any more!

John

[Deleted User]

I had a cooler whilst I had my 1300 fitted and it made a difference to oil pressure and the car did not smell as much with it fitted, but that was a tuned engine. I don't run a cooler now on the 2ltr 16v and the oil temp is  not an issue as I have a temp and pressure sensor. No issue no oil cooler.
Rob

[Nick Jones]

In general I agree with John about testing to prove a need, and I 100% agree about the need for an oil 'stat.  However, my experiences with 1500 engines (in Heralds) is that they definitely do need oil coolers and I killed a number of sets of bearing shells (and complete engine) proving it .  Once fitted I found that the oil 'stat would open pretty much any time I went over 15 miles.  Later on, when I went back to a small crank 1300, I kept the cooler because it was there, but even though that engine was more powerful and used to get revved alot harder, the oil 'stat would take alot longer to open and in cool weather might not open at all.   Also, my Vitesse seems to manage to hold on to decent oil pressure without a cooler even when caned over the Alps on hot days......  Dunno what it is about the 1500!

Nick

[oil_on_the_carpet]

Fit an oil cooler?

Absolutely, and it doesn't need quantifying - Triumph already did that for us.

Back in the day, Triumph offered an oil cooler for 'continental motoring', thats using fast roads and motorways to you and me.
They knew the oil system was marginal and fast running would stress it.

We all do the equivalent of 'continental motoring' now on our faster roads with hotter running fuels.

[Nick Moore]

Today my 13/60 has covered 300 'continental' miles, most of those on flat country roads at 60mph. The outside temperature was 30 to 32C, coolant temp ranged from 85C cruising to 100C climbing the Great Dividing Range, oil temperature stayed around 60C, and the oil pressure was 40 to 45psi at cruise. So no, it doesn't need an oil cooler.

Oh, and it's managed 40.6mpg despite twin 1.5" SUs, which is nice.

[oil_on_the_carpet]

Light running on flat country roads doesn't load up an engine.
Driving in heavy traffic on fast roads and accelerating a lot to keep up will.
Moderns all have more oil and oil coolers, often a small oil/water one to keep the oil happy.

[bxbodger]

1960's 'continental motoring' was done on 1960's oil, a cooler may have been thought neccesary then, but  today? With modern oils? Its just an extra bit of unnecessary bling.

[oil_on_the_carpet]

bxbodger wrote:

1960's 'continental motoring' was done on 1960's oil, a cooler may have been thought neccesary then, but  today? With modern oils? Its just an extra bit of unnecessary bling.

Heat is heat, the laws of thermodynamics do not change.
Modern oils will just as assuredly lose their ability to maintain an oil film as a 60's oil if it gets too hot.
Equivalent foreign cars had higher capacity oil and cooling systems, most pre 70's British cars are marginal.
Oil coolers are most assuredly not 'bling'.

[trackerjack]

Same car two drivers = different results.
Diane drives our Quantum turbo on track and the temp of the water reaches 90 deg, I on the other hand get it up to 115 deg!
I have fitted an oil cooler to the car I have just built (MX5 Turbo 1.6).

Just fit a thermostat valve to the oil cooler lines and no matter what the oil only gets cooled if it needs it.................simples.

[Beans]

So Diana is the more sensible driver  :P
Agree on the thermostat in the oil cooler lines though  ;)

[Richard B]

beans wrote:

So Diana is the [s] more sensible [/s] smoother driver

8)