Running in oil?

[Nick Jones]

Interesting vids Hugh!

Was surprised to see 2 valves per cylinder and pushrods on the V8......  Awful lot of bits in the W12 though!

Bottom end of my Vitesse engine is still Triumph-built - not for much longer though.
PI engine was until last year.

Nick

[JohnD]

In another place, old-tyme Rolls Royce practices were discussed.
RR provided a pre-set, non-adjustable torque wrench for each nut/bolt group!  They were recalibrated weekly, and chucked if they were out!
Spanners were purposely short, 2-3 inches, so that no bolt could be tightened using them, ONLY the preset TWs!

THAT's proper, very expensive, engineering!
JOhn

[Hughbert]

Nick_Jones wrote:

Interesting vids Hugh!

Was surprised to see 2 valves per cylinder and pushrods on the V8......   Awful lot of bits in the W12 though!

Bottom end of my Vitesse engine is still Triumph-built - not for much longer though.
PI engine was until last year.

Nick

Hi Nick
The V8 engine has its origin in 1950 and is still a simple design for 2013  :) it produces 512PS (505bhp/377kW) while the massive torque (1020Nm/) (712lb ft) is now delivered at 1750rpm of torque from a 6.3/4 litre twin turbo engine it gets of the line as faster than either the  W12 or V8TFSi GT all that torque at such a low revs means both engined GT@s have to catch up.  ;D.

There is nothing quite like it driving a Mulsane when you launch it off the line and it just keeps pulling your sitting in a first class luxury surroundings looking over that huge long bonnet in near silence except the V8 woof and the car is steaming along  ;D ;D ;D ;D MPG oh errr 10 mpg when steaming it :o :o.

I guess working with them all the time me off a GT but a Mulsane is top on my list should I every be able to have the money to buy and run one oh and have a very big garage to park it in  ;)  

Just take a look at the figures below
Technical

ENGINE
Engine Capacity     6752cc Twin-turbocharged V8
Max. Power     505bhp / 377kW / 512PS @ 4200rpm
Max.Torque     1020Nm, 752lb.ft @ 1750rpm
Cam phasing and Variable Displacement
Compression Ratio     7.8:1
Emission Level     EU 5 / LEV II
Fuel     EU 95 to 98 RON     US/ROW 92 to 98 RON
DRIVELINE AND TRANSMISSION
Eight-speed automatic gearbox with electronic shift interface, sport mode and steering wheel mounted paddleshift.
Rear wheel drive
PERFORMANCE
Max. Speed     184mph / 296km/h
Acceleration     0 - 60mph     5.1 seconds
Acceleration     0 - 100km/h     5.3 seconds
FUEL CONSUMPTION
EU DRIVE CYCLE (EU drive cycle fuel consumption figures are provisional and subject to Type Approval)
Urban     11.2mpg     25.3 litres/100km
Extra-Urban     24.0mpg     11.8 litres/100km
Combined     16.8mpg     16.9 litres/100km
CO2 emissions (combined)     393g/km
EPA DRIVE CYCLE (US EPA fuel consumption figures are pending certification and not currently available)
City Driving     11 Usmpg
Highway Driving     18 Usmpg
Combined Driving     13 Usmpg
WEIGHTS AND VOLUMES
Kerb weight (Markets outside North America)     2685kg / 5919lb
Kerb weight (North America)     2711kg / 5976lb
Gross Weight (All markets)     3200kg / 7055lb
Front Axle Weight     1535kg
Rear Axle Weight     1640kg
Boot Volume     443L
Fuel tank capacity     96L     21.12 Gallons / 25.36 US Gallons
DIMENSIONS
Overall Length     5575mm     18ft 3in
Width across mirrors     2208mm     7ft 3in
Width with mirrors folded     1926mm     6ft 4in
Height     1521mm     5ft
Wheel Base     3266mm
Front Track     1615mm
Rear Track     1652mm


http://www.bentleymotors.com/models/mulsanne/performance/

[thescrapman]

8017 wrote:

There is nothing quite like it driving a Mulsane when you launch it off the line and it just keeps pulling your sitting in a first class luxury surroundings looking over that huge long bonnet in near silence except the V8 woof and the car is steaming along  ;D ;D ;D ;D MPG oh errr 10 mpg when steaming it :o :o.

I bet the feeling of almost limitless torque and power is quite sublime.

I wonder if Lancasters up the road will let me take a test drive... :-)

Cheers

Colin

(p.s. my Mk1 PI was still on it's "never opened" engine until year before last (now sat in garage awaiting attention) and the green PI is also on its original engine as far as I can tell. Maybe not much longer if I keep abusing it.... :-)
The other 6 cars have all had a bottom end rebuild )

[Hughbert]

[quote=JohnD]
Hand built Bentley engine?




Not sure what your ? means but they are hand built by one person in cell build form they put their real name on the engine its not a PR stunt.
Yes there are no robots just the real people you see in the videos take a look at the web site above the main build hall and many of the buildings are the original ones that built RR aero engines for Wellington bombers and the original Spitfires in fact you can still see the camouflage paint on the sides and roof of the main build hall put on during the II world war.

[Hughbert]

thescrapman wrote:

I bet the feeling of almost limitless torque and power is quite sublime.

I wonder if Lancasters up the road will let me take a test drive... :-)

Cheers

Colin

(p.s. my Mk1 PI was still on it's "never opened" engine until year before last (now sat in garage awaiting attention) and the green PI is also on its original engine as far as I can tell. Maybe not much longer if I keep abusing it.... :-)
The other 6 cars have all had a bottom end rebuild )

Yeah I remember one day on the way back from down south on a motorway somewhere ;) in the outside lane overtaking some slow vehicles  ;) a monster sized USA pickup came charging up to within a couple of feet of the boot lid I could only see the huge front end of the truck in the rear view mirror a Dodge Ram or Ford 150 thingy. I was going a little over the expectable  ;) speed limit but the driver began to flash and drop back them charge again up to the rear end flashing his lights.

Anyway we cleared all the traffic so I put my foot down a touch and let the huge torque kick in the pickup just became a dot and the look on the drivers face and the WTF mouthed words were clear to see as his big engined truck just got mashed was priceless just  fantastic 8) 8) I then pulled into the inside lane and resumed normal speed after a time he went by and I gave him a smile and a wave and he just nodded his head looking sheepish ;D ;D ;D

[JohnD]

[quote=8017]

JohnD wrote:

Hand built Bentley engine?
Not sure what your ? means.

Not sure what other point of punctuation I could have used.  Maybe a full stop.
I don't doubt that they are built by one man's hands.    My point and exclamation was that while that is available in a luxury supercar, it is also true of most (?) Triumphs.    Building - or in our case, rebuilding - an engine isn't quantum chromodynamics it's basic engineering.    Bentley take it to a very high degree - that is why they can sell their cars for so much - but the same 'hand-built' engine label is available to any Triumphero who wants to.

John

[Hughbert]

JohnD wrote:

Not sure what other point of punctuation I could have used.  Maybe a full stop.
I don't doubt that they are built by one man's hands.    My point and exclamation was that while that is available in a luxury supercar, it is also true of most (?) Triumphs.    Building - or in our case, rebuilding - an engine isn't quantum chromodynamics it's basic engineering.    Bentley take it to a very high degree - that is why they can sell their cars for so much - but the same 'hand-built' engine label is available to any Triumphero who wants to.

John

Okay :-/

[Lord Sorbington]

I recently had the pleasure of travelling in a Continental GT Speed, 616bhp I believe, a very impressive machine.

[Nick Moore]

My delight was partly fueled because I spent the weekend carefully fitting rings and pistons, taking the time to check that everything was free to move as it should, with no tight spots. The Bentley V8 video only made me take even more time to get it right.

These days I guess all Triumph engines are essentially hand-built, but the factory obviously didn't take such care. One of my con-rods came from a different casting to its fellows and was about 30g heavier. That's just shoddy workmanship. If BL had produced engines with 'Built by Bob' plaques on them, either the workmanship would have improved out of sight, or the workers wouldn't have got much sleep!

[Hughbert]

Nick_Moore wrote:

My delight was partly fueled because I spent the weekend carefully fitting rings and pistons, taking the time to check that everything was free to move as it should, with no tight spots. The Bentley V8 video only made me take even more time to get it right.

These days I guess all Triumph engines are essentially hand-built, but the factory obviously didn't take such care. One of my con-rods came from a different casting to its fellows and was about 30g heavier. That's just shoddy workmanship. If BL had produced engines with 'Built by Bob' plaques on them, either the workmanship would have improved out of sight, or the workers wouldn't have got much sleep!

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[JohnD]

Nick_Moore wrote:

These days I guess all Triumph engines are essentially hand-built, but the factory obviously didn't take such care. One of my con-rods came from a different casting to its fellows and was about 30g heavier. That's just shoddy workmanship. If BL had produced engines with 'Built by Bob' plaques on them, either the workmanship would have improved out of sight, or the workers wouldn't have got much sleep!

Are you SURE your engine had not been rebuilt before?  By a myopic ape who liked juggling conrods?  
OK, that might describe the average Triumph line worker (or not - one might be reading this!)

But you have illustrated perfectly that Triumph engines today can be properly "handbuilt", even blue-printed, by their devoted owners.    And why not get a little plaque made for yours, "Built by Nick" to go with the "Built, not Bought" bumper sticker?   I've got an engraver tool - I'll give it a go!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p3984.m570.l1311.R3.TR3.TRC1.A0.Xbuilt+not+bought&_nkw=built+not+bought+sticker&_sacat=0&_from=R40
JOhn

[JohnD]

Thinking on the above, and that Rols, Bentley and so on have the engine builders name on a little plaque on the engine, I thought, Why not my engine?   It is hand built in the same sense as Rolls/Bentley, by one person from top to bottom, even if it isn't done in an operating theatre.    And one f my Xmas presnets was an engraving tool - you know, thing that vibrates a hard metal point to put your name on tools and the like.   So I got out a peice of scrap alloy plate and gave it a go.  Needs squaring up, drilling and edge/corner chamfering to make it look meant, but what do you think?

Could do with something in the engraving to make the characters more prominent.  Any ideas?
John

[Nick Moore]

Brilliant, John!

[Sheepy]

Why not try

"hand built by silverback"

Would look nice if you could in lay black paint into the engraving.

[rotoflex]

What are the laws over there?  Does it need more complete labeling?

Would the label need to be something like:

Quote:

Hand built by JohnD

Contains:  Sweat, profanity, blood, fingernails, human flesh.  May contain traces of nuts.

[JohnD]

LOL, Bill!
But also a LOT of thought!

Though I says so myself, it looks better in the metal than in the pic.  To get paint to stick in the grooves would be difficult on aluminium - etch primer essential first, so might as well paint the plate!  
Glad you like it.   I'll try the next steps as outlined above, to give it that professional look, and try laquering the polished alloy. to keep it bright.
JOhn

PS Silverback no more, by a long time now.

[Hughbert]

I some how feel Bentley Motors Ltd will not be challenged in the quality of their engine badges some how   :o

[69vitesse]

JohnD wrote:

Are you SURE your engine had not been rebuilt before?  By a myopic ape who liked juggling conrods?  
OK, that might describe the average Triumph line worker (or not - one might be reading this!)

But you have illustrated perfectly that Triumph engines today can be properly "handbuilt", even blue-printed, by their devoted owners.    And why not get a little plaque made for yours, "Built by Nick" to go with the "Built, not Bought" bumper sticker?   I've got an engraver tool - I'll give it a go!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p3984.m570.l1311.R3.TR3.TRC1.A0.Xbuilt+not+bought&_nkw=built+not+bought+sticker&_sacat=0&_from=R40
JOhn

Alas, its common enough to find mixed rods in known unrebuilt engines.
There was no real QC at Triumph in the 70's, all that mattered was the number of engines off the line between strikes. Even the odd missing half bearing shell was not unknown.

[Slimboyfat]

2729 wrote:

There was no real QC at Triumph in the 70's, all that mattered was the number of engines off the line between strikes. .

That's a sweeping statement.

My father worked at the Standard, as did many of my relatives, and friends over the years.

You talk face to face with any ex Triumph guy and what comes over is the pride they had in working there.

Strikes? I have the day to day production records for Canley in the 1970's here, and they list every reason for every shutdown. Most shutdowns were caused by component supplier disputes, Triumph (unlike other BL factories) had good industrial relations (my father lost less than a week in the 16 years he worked there).

Having stripped the best part of a thousand plus Triumph engines in the course of my job over the last 30 years I have to say that you must have been unlucky. I have found that genuinely untampered with stuff is/was consistantly good quality.

[69vitesse]

I'm well aware most of the issues were supplier strikes, and by God was their quality sometimes suspect.
Like the set of new main bearing bolts I bought back in the day for a Sprint engine that wouldn't torque up, they had not been hardened....
No one wanted a 'strike car'.

[Hogie]

I've never found an original TRiumph manufacturing C*ck-up but my father-in-laws Vauxhall Viva HC had an end cap on a big end that it shouldn't of had.
When clamped up the crank was seized.  
However with a new battery the bearing gave in and after 28K miles the bearing gave out.

With mass production you can have problems.

Roger

[Hughbert]

Slimboyfat wrote:

That's a sweeping statement.

My father worked at the Standard, as did many of my relatives, and friends over the years.

You talk face to face with any ex Triumph guy and what comes over is the pride they had in working there.

Strikes? I have the day to day production records for Canley in the 1970's here, and they list every reason for every shutdown. Most shutdowns were caused by component supplier disputes, Triumph (unlike other BL factories) had good industrial relations (my father lost less than a week in the 16 years he worked there).

Having stripped the best part of a thousand plus Triumph engines in the course of my job over the last 30 years I have to say that you must have been unlucky. I have found that genuinely untampered with stuff is/was consistantly good quality.

Your quite correct I being a Cov kid ( born in Royal Leamington Spa but moved when 3 years old to Cov) I know many old Canley workers and Jaguar, Rover,Rootes, Chrysler, Hillman,Triumph, Morris, etc workers too. Many had great pride in their work the striking militant worker who did not give a dam for his workmanship that seems to have become the standard description of every UK car worker of the time is very wrong.


Very poor management with constant interference from successive governments very little inward investment to keep pace with developing technologies meant UK car plants falling behind the rest of the world. The constant upheaval poor planning and overlapping models with confusing strategies did nothing to help and lead to many workers feeling as though their skills were considered as worthless and very undervalued. Plus the many union leaders who ran a personal vendetta due to having a grudge against the company or because they completely forgot what the people they were meant to be representing didn't do the workers any favours either.


So many car manufactures based in Coventry now sadly none left there now no actual car is built in Cov just some engineering by Jaguar it was very very sad to see the once massive Peugeot plant being reduced to rubble cleared. Sad too to watch  the Rolls Royce Aero plant at Parkside reduced to rubble plus the Humber plant destroyed and replaced with houses. The Canley site being destroyed was sad to watch too. The Alvis site on the Holyhead Road reduced to rubble so many great  car maker land sites gone.

A large Amazon warehouse now stands on a small part of the huge Peugeot plant site at Ryton on Dunsmore says it all really.


Sorry thread drift.

[Nick Jones]

Would agree that original engine manufacturing quality is pretty good.  I can't match Dave's numbers, but all of the original Triumph-built engines I've pulled apart have had pretty good weight and shape matches.  Some of the "rebuilt" ones........  :o  Not even matching main bearing caps and shimmed with strips of coke can......

Of course, the ones I'm pulling apart have survived MANY years so it could be argued that they were the cream of the crop.

Nick

[69vitesse]

Triumph were quite simply incapable of achieving the engineering  standards required to build modern engines.
The hand built Dolomite Sprint engine prototypes were clocking 150bhp, about right for a high performance 2l 16v engine.
When they tried to productioneer them, it first dropped to 135bhp, cue all the Dolomite 135 badges, then they settled on 127bhp without any visible claims, the engine outputs were so all over the place.
Warranty claims for failed engines were just accepted as 'oh well'. The Stag V8, 8v slant 4's and Dolomite Sprint engines, all turkeys with many intrinsic design faults and atrocious engineering build quality as standard.

The most important tools rebuilding any Triumph engine is measuring instruments and precision scales. Nothing OEM  can assumed to be in spec, even within the same batch, and usually aren't. By comparison, rebuilding Honda engines, I know everything will be nominal.