Trackday driver's advice

[Raider]

Not being a trackday driver I wondered what you regulars thought of this

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xxrFiAzeYTE

This is the type of rally we will be doing first and quite possibly this particular one which is at Three Sisters race circuit

I know it's not the same as there's not the chance to hone your performance on the track lap after lap but is there any advice you could offer me as a driver? Smoother, approach sweeping corners ina particular way?

[Tim Bancroft]

Martin,

Probably an idea to have a go at the CT trackday at Cadwell?

Chris Shaw is very well versed in this events, so may be an idea to have a chat with him. Not sure smooth driving is gonna be easy on an event like that. Reckon the co-driver is more important than the driver. That nav. in the youtube film was seriously good.

[sparky_spit]

Hi Martin - I've done lots of trackdays in the Subaru but none in either of the Spitfires. However, the principles are the same.....

Smoothness is the key, use all the track, brake in good time. Remember slow in, fast out. It's very easy to get over-exuberant, leave braking too late and consequently have to brake too heavily. This will work for a while but as soon as you cook the brakes (which you will) you are knackered - you must slow down to let them cool and you'll lose 10 times more time than you gained. You have to drive within your braking performance.

If you are one of the lower powered cars, smoothness and keeping momentum is key. Try not to allow understeer too much - it will remove the front outside edge of your N/S tyre (assuming it's a clockwise circuit) in a few laps. If necessary, do a sort of "mini scandinavian flick" to load the suspension on the light side; this helps reduce understeer. Don't overdo it, just a merest touch is needed; too much and you just unbalance the car.

One thing I found - driving absolutely balls-out and gaining a second here and there is extremely tiring. Backing off even just a tiny bit makes things so much more manageable and you are able to keep this up for a much longer period of time, and the times were not very much slower. Maybe not such an issue if your only really doing a sprint - which it looks like from the video? Or is it a few laps?

Just my 2p's worth... no doubt the proper racers on here will have lots more tips.

[Raider]

Thanks for the advice Mike

Quote:

Maybe not such an issue if your only really doing a sprint - which it looks like from the video? Or is it a few laps?

That was one stage out of 12 - so it lasts all day with a 30 minute break bewteen stages. That's when the service crew gives the car a once over and passes the crew a bacon buttie :)

[Raider]

timbancroft61 wrote:

Martin,
Reckon the co-driver is more important than the driver. That nav. in the youtube film was seriously good.

Hopefully Sarah won't happen on this thread and see what you said Tim!!

Actually I reckon Sarah cane asily be as good as that navigator ;)

I do tend to think though that my natural tendency to throw the car around would not be as good as a more measured approach on a tarmac event like this. On closed roads fair enough cos you really can't see what's round that next bend or over the bridge - at this kind of circuit or airfield venue you can see over the cones!

[JohnD]

Raider,
Driver and navigator should agree some system that does NOT involve hand signals!
The driver needs their eyes on the road continuously, and navigator in the pace book.
See any rally video with in car footage!
Big international rallies allow reconnoitering, so the navigator adds speed and other advice to their directional instructions, but most other rallies don't allow reconnaissance, and provide tulip diagrams or other guides to the crew.
The navigator should be giving the driver their instructions one corner ahead.   The driver can see the corner coming up!   A "turn left here" gesture is unnecessary, so special points about the corner - esses, hairpin etc, not direction - and about the cornmer after, so the driver knows how to set the car up on the exit of this one.
Or is this course driven blind, as it were?   If so, why a navigator?

A "Scandanavian flick" can get you broadside through a bend, IF you are on a loose surface.  On tarmac it slows you down.   Slow in, fast out, indentify the correct braking, turn-in and apex points.   On a circuit they may be marked by small paint spots on the tarmac, so that cones can be set out on instruction days.    They may be too small to see from the car, so a track walk before, if allowed, may be most informative!

John

[Slowdown]

I agree with John about the co-driver (we 'navigators' are very jealous of the title!) and he/she should be providing verbal instructions, and not hand signals.  Actually I disagree with Tim - I didn't think he was very good at all.  The driver should be getting his co-driver's information through his ears as his eyes should be on where he is going, and in a rally car that may not mean looking in the direction of the co-driver!  A properly-working intercom set at the correct volume is therefore a must.

The most important thing from the driver/co-driver angle is the timing of the information.  I have sat with some drivers who want to know 1 junction ahead, and equally some who want 3 or 4 ahead - it needs to be worked out between the crew.  It's also important for the driver to be told what's happening after the junction/bend, in terms of how long the straight is.

Martin, if you haven't done these kinds of event before, you may be surprised how difficult it is to see the way through the cones and chicanes, sitting so low in your TR7.  It is also difficult to see the way at split junctions, and on a multi-use stage they tend to be where most mistakes are made.

As I'm sure you're aware, the Manx will provide a much different sort of challenge!

[Raider]

Thanks for the input guys.

We have an intercom so we shouldn't need hand signals and yes we'll sort out our own patter.

I have my seat set up as high as I can in the car but I take your point even so about seeing over cones.

The last time I did one of these events was 1990 which means I am a bit rusty but I was most interested in the driving advice - I reckon John and Mike are right, slow in fast out on a circuit.

The Manx will be very different - this one should be a nice gentle start ;)

[Tim Bancroft]

The Sunbeam team had probably worked before and therefore decided that hand signals would help?

As stated before the 'Team' should sort out a system.

I have done a couple of 'Tests with Martin and as Martin knows I have issues remembering left and right, therefore I used hand signals as well.

Exuberance is not the way, I remember doing a couple of tests with Martin where he seemed quicker when he was more relaxed-as Mike's suggestion.

Placing a TR7 will always be difficult. Shame really as a GT6 is so easy to place, the lack of wheel travel and nervous handling make them unsuitable for what Martin has in mind.

Must say 'Good luck' to team Randle/Johnson, I hope you both have a ball!

[mikeyb]

Baz (who runs Delado) has been involved in rallying nearly 40 years, he's driven TR7 V8's (TR8s?) in anger.  He found he kept hitting things in the forest due to not being able to see the front extremities of the car.  Eventually he stuck a couple of posts/flags on the front bumper corners so he could see where they were - worked a treat!

[Luke]

I'm lurking about again ;)  Navigators/Co-drivers advice

Thanks Tim :) My new female mentor tells me that I am the boss but don't tell him HWMBO (Martin) that is and not my husband on this occasion.

I'm postive that I can do this, and very good under pressure :) So hopefully will be able to call correctly to Martin without having to use my hands unless I shall be hitting him with the fly swat  :-/

Had a 0 to 80 to a 130 mile an hour chaffeur driven ride around Manby in a subaru yesterday with Richard who is a very experienced rally driver and also co-drived on the Manx got him to talk me round the track.  He said that if HWMBO calls a bend, hairpin etc a banana I've got to call it a banana :X Whatever!!

Send for the straight jackets I think ;D

[JohnD]

Slowdown,
Why are 'navigators' so defensive?
Some of the best professionals are not that good as drivers, yet if their driver moves on to a new team they go with them, or else are sought after by other drivers.   Wheras said drivers would loose themselves in a supermarket.  Navigating is a great skill, different, not less than driving.

Say it loud and say it proud - I'm a NAVIGATOR!

John

[Slowdown]

John

I couldn't agree more, and I thought that was the sentiment I was trying to get across.  But if it pleases you

I'M A NAVIGATOR!!

The distinction is between 'navigators' and 'co-drivers'.  As a championship road-rally navigator, I would have had a maximum of 2 hours to get a 250 mile route onto 1:50000 maps, and then thread my driver on the correct route at the correct time, at the best possible speed.  It is quite a skill, and it takes some considerable time and effort to get it right.  Contrast that with the co-driver in the You-Tube clip who has had to do no prior work on the route, only has to handle a basic road book with all the route instructions laid out for him, and only has to do this for a few miles at a time before he can get out for a long rest until the next stage.  I think you'll agree the skill required bears no comparison.  

The situation is completely different of course with WRC evnts and the like, and it's interesting to note that the likes of Nicky Grist and Phil Mills started their motorsport careers as navigators.  As you say, the skills they offer are highly prized, and not only in the left hand seat.  Look for instance at John Richardson at Ford, Luis Moya at Subaru, and not forgetting Jean Todt at Ferrari.

Yes, I'm proud to be (or have been!) a NAVIGATOR.

[michael]

i,am looking for good navagator pm if interested former barretts east of england regarsd michael

[Deleted User]

Michael ,have you come across the classic rally chat site ...there is a crew matching section there , might be worth posting a wanted there if you can't find a nav within the triumph world

[paulsprint]

Martin
The way the co driver describes the road to driver is very important, get it wrong and you will have a big off (the Manx is very very fast and tight with a lot of it between tall hedge rows with no room for error).
I use the 1 to 9 system.  One being flat out left or right,  to nine being a hairpin.   I used  a recognised system so as when I did National A events i.e. track rod, bulldog and Manx’s   I could buy a set of notes and not have to rewrite them.  Track days are a good way to get used to the car when it’s on the limit...  but you will get very little feel for it sliding etc. Start off with single venue rallies. They are usually based on an old airfields or race tracks.   These events are a good start as there is usually very little to hit and the co driver has not got to work out where they are going on road sections etc. allowing them to concentrate on telling you where to go. ( plus after 3 or four stages you get to know the lie of the land your self so. you will also get a crack at the same hairpin for junction several times, so you can try out different ways of getting round it fastest and smoothest.).   The Tour of Lincs (if it is still run) is  an excellent intro to mutli venue rallies as this visited several air fields and farm roads over two days giving you a feel of proper rallying.   Hope this is of some help

[Raider]

It certainly is Paul.

I also think the numbering system makes sense - and going up the numbers for severity of corner.

We feel this first single venue will give us the chance to learn alot, including for example how to organise spares, transport to and from, servicing etc as well as the actual competition.

I am so tempted to really go for it ont he next one tho - and enter the Jim Clark rally :)

Sarah feels confident about the road sections and she certaily can read a map - it's the pace note stuff etc that is more of a concern.

Thanks for the advice - do you still rally yourself?

[paulsprint]

no i stopperd a few years back, ran out of money.   It is my intension to build a new car (dolomite)  and have a go again. I  had about 6 good years involovement in the sport,  doing the BTRDA  and some rounds of the mintex   as well as helping a out a frend with servicing and running the management/ chase car  in the minex championship and 3  years of the network Q ( when we still had a decent round of the world rally championship)  if you want any advice pm me your number and i will give you a ring, its a lot easyer than this typing lark ( my finger gets worn out)

[Chriss]

Hi Martin

Sorry not to have got to this thread earlier, but I have just been off proving it is quicker to ski down the Stelvio that to drive down it, although at the cost of 2 twisted knees and suspected broken ribs and concussion.

You have had a lot of good advice here that I would not challenge and my technology does not enable me to look at your link, but there is one major difference between circuit driving and stage driving.  The circuit driver has several opportunities to refine his / her approach to a series of cornors, the stage driver has just one shot.  The best approach for the circuit driver is to drive smoothly and progressively build up to the limit by finding the perfect braking point, line and acceleration through the cornor. The stage driver does not have that luxury.  He / she has to be quick never having been on that piece of road before.  The stage driver may not be quite as quick as the track driver's ultimate attempt, but has to be nearly as quick to be competitive.  That I suspect requires a more reactive approach, a thorough knowledge of how the car behaves in different circumstances and a car that behaves predictably.

I understand Ellis knows Brian Culcheth......

[Raider]

IN principle I think you are right Chris in the difference between a racer and a rally driver but

This particular rally is on a race circuit and I expect the stages to be run 3 or 4 times so there will be some opportunity to learn the corners etc.

It will also bea great way to do what you also say tho - learn how the car behaves!

All in all, a real training event for us in my opinion.