Clutch well and truly stuffed!

[Ben Baxter]

On the way back from Rye last weekend clutch judder randomly re-appeared, 40miles later it stopped. Sadly so did my ability to select gears, bit of a bugger really as I was pulling away on a left bearing dual carriageway with no hard shoulder! Stank like high heaven too so not too difficult to diagnose at least.

Got the gearbox off today (another first for me), I now have a multi-part clutch:

[Ben Baxter]

Main thing though is that there's a huge amount of gunk on the inside of the bellhousing, which I'm assuming shouldn't be there. Obviously I'm going to clean it all out but just wondering where people think that it might have come from? Engine leak?

And best ways to solve this?

[Freebird]

Hi Ben

That gunk looks like it was produced by a rear crankshaft oil seal leak. Oil on the clutch plate will cause the judder you were experiencing.

It think  the seal can be replaced without taking the engine out if you can get the rear sump bolts out to release the seal carrier - that's if it's the same as the 6 pot and my memory serves be correctly.

There are many experts on this forum who can confirm that. What engine do you have?

Glen.

[Ben Baxter]

It's a 1969 Herald 1200, 1147cc engine.

So am I right in thinking that the oil on the clutch plate will have caused the judder, and the judder was what then caused the breakup of the clutch plate? Therefore putting a new clutch in without solving the oil leak will just result in another buggered clutch?

Can't really see on the photos but the inside of the clutch plate and on the matching face of the disk were also really worn - visible deep scoring. But seeing as I've no idea when it was last changed I'm taking that as normal wear at a high level.

[Freebird]

Yes, I think you are right. A new clutch will last a while, but the oil will get to it in the end.

Is the Flywheel OK? That might need a skim if it's badly scored.

Glen.

[Nick Jones]

I think you can safely say you found the problem  ;)

With the friction plate in that condition  :o, there is no particular reason to be looking for any other cause......

That bell housing doesn't look all that bad.  Could be the crank oil seal is dripping a bit, but its needs to be a fairly big leak to get on the clutch as it is on the other side of the flywheel.  Herald gearboxes only have a scroll type 'seal' on their input shaft and they will always pass a bit, especially if you park facing downhill.  Oil from this is more likely to get into the clutch as it just runs along the input shaft. The crank seal can be changed by removing the flywheel, digging the old seal out of the housing and popping a new one in.  Avoid disturbing the housing itself if you can or there is a fair chance you will end up with a bigger leak than you started with!  Also check the new seal is a snug fit on the crank - there is some tat about.

Cheers

Nick

[DJB_Harvey]

I would just put in a NEW quality clutch , clean out bellhousing and bolt it all together! That dirt and oil in the bellhousing looks about normal to me ,unless there were obvious drips before i say leave it alone.

[Deleted User]

Such catastrophic clutch plate failure is also symptomatic of a slightly bent engine back plate.  It might be worth checking it for flatness before fitting the new clutch.

[Nick Jones]

KevinR wrote:

Such catastrophic clutch plate failure is also symptomatic of a slightly bent engine back plate.  It might be worth checking it for flatness before fitting the new clutch.

That's good advice!

Nick

[Dale]

In your 1st pic it looks like the starter ring gear is sh*gged at the top of the pic, or is that just a reflection from the flash?
If it is sh*gged then now's the time to do that too.

[Dale]

PS. Also agree that it's well worth checking engine/box alignment in case backplate's bent and that the amount of crud in the bell housing doesn't look that bad.
An engine oil leak has to be pretty epic to get on the clutch as it has to get past the flywheel 1st which aint easy (unless you've got a Sprint) as it just gets flung out around the b/housing which you can also see in the pic.

[Ben Baxter]

Nick_Jones wrote:

I think you can safely say you found the problem  ;)

With the friction plate in that condition  :o, there is no particular reason to be looking for any other cause......

Indeed!

Nick_Jones wrote:

Herald gearboxes only have a scroll type 'seal' on their input shaft and they will always pass a bit, especially if you park facing downhill.

Well that's entertaining! Over the past couple of months I've been parking down hill - I live at the end of a dead-end road and just rolling it downhill fixes two problems - flat battery (not an electrical problem, more a "me" problem with me leaving the lights on) and having to deal with clutch judder if it occurs as I only have to start in second and move straight to third instead of faffing with reverse and first (which it was more prevalent in).

Think that's just a flash where the starter ring gear is concerned, all looked fine when I took the gearbox out but will have another look to make sure.

I think the clutch failure will be less a result of a bent backplate than the driving I'd been doing with a dicky contaminated clutch. Took a wrong turn over the weekend and ended up in Hastings with 3 passengers and a boot full of beer and brandy, some of the hill starts were interesting to say the least ... When it went I was also knackered having not slept in the previous three days (but at least the brandy and beer weren't weighing the car down) so I don't think I was particularly gentle with the clutch on that particular takeoff.

I'll check it though. Nice to hear that the gunk is vaguely normal, had me concerned that something major was afoot. New clutch is on way, hoping I don't have to replace anything else as I'm flipping broke (again), and that's even with Peter James halving my insurance premium. At least there was a full tank of petrol in the car when I broke down, silver linings and all that.

[Deleted User]

To my eye, the only bits of the clutch that lok contaminated are the bits your retreived from the oily gunk around the bell housing AFTER it disintegrated.  The remainder of the clutch just looks "well used".  

As Dale has already said, it is very difficult for an oil leak to contaminate a clutch.

Clutch judder is also one of the symptoms of a bent engine backplate, so I wouldn't dismiss it so quickly.  It doesn't have to be bent by much to cause the problem - often it can only be detected by measurement.  The plate usually gets bent when someone "pulls" the gearbox and engine together using the bolts, rather than mating the two and then doing up the bolts.

If you don't check the backplate, then be prepared to do the job again next year.

[Ben Baxter]

Okay, that makes a lot of sense. Nothing has been done on the engine since 1978 mind, especially nothing necessitating an engine out job - the nice old biddy who had the car until '95 kept all of the receipts (£400+ a year on labour, the odd bit of welding etc, and this was in the eighties!), and the lass who had it after just drove it till the headgasket blew. Guess it's probably had a new clutch at some point though.

Is the quickest way to check just to place a straight object across the face and see if it leaves contact anywhere?

[Jason]

Straight edge will do, from what you've said it seems unlikely to be a bent backplate but you never really know unless you test :-) How much meat was left on the clutch plate? Was it down to the riverts? Remeber that clutch plates don't have loads of friction material on them in the first place, they don't wear down as quickly as say brake pads but like brake pads they will disintegrated when they get super thin.
Be aware that the new Coventry Clutches (made in China) do smell a bit weird when you smoke them up on say a hill start the first time. If you can find NOS great but don't pay a premium as the repro ones are good enough and are quite cheap these days.
I'm just rebuilding my hydraulics, wish me luck with the infamous Triumph 2000 clutch bleed quest!

[Ben Baxter]

It's a new Coventry Clutch from Canley's, shall look forward to a nice aroma, suppose that it'll get rid of the smell of that bloody horrid gearbox oil at least (I always spill a little).

Next important question: How in all that is holy do I separate the release bearing from the carrier? Clamp the carrier in a vice and just lever on both sides with a lot of oomph? Doesn't want to shift even a visible fraction at present, but I've not gone at it properly. The dodgy low quality pictures in the reproduction Haynes manuals are not helpful in the slightest, and are slowly becoming a pet hate.

Guessing that the fact that my bearing spins nicely on the carrier means that that is shot too. At least it's all getting fixed at once, just waiting around for that new clutch to arrive in the post.

[Steve Cureton]

Ben, I can't remember the exact detail but there's a interference-fit pin (I don't know the proper term) you remove which then allows the bearing to come out easily - do not force it.

[heraldcoupe]

OK, I've come in late on this one as I've been stood in a field in Hampshire for a couple of days.
Firstly, the contamination in the bottom of the bellhousing is pretty typical of what I'd expect to find on in conjunction with the scroll gearbox seal.
Secondly, that clutch breakup is very unlikely to be caused by anything except a misalignment between engine and gearbox. This is not how clutches fail in their own right, it's how they break when fatigued by continual changes in drive angle. The obvious favourite is a bent engine backplate.
Thirdly, the bearing is a push-fit onto the carrier. Removing the carrier from the release arm may help, but a puller is probably the best option for removing the bearing itself.
Cheers,
Bill.

[ferny]

If you're very careful you can get an old flat screwdriver on the edge of the bearing and systematically tap it off - being careful not to smack the bearing itself and just the edge which is on the shaft. It's what bent screwdrivers where made for... And keep the bearing. The old might not be too bad and if the new fails for some reason you have a back-up. Plus new ones can sound like they have tweety pie trapped inside.

[Ben Baxter]

By edge do you mean the small lip facing the carrier? Guessing I'm clamping the carrier in a vice while I'm doing this?

Apologies for all the questions, you lot will be writing an addendum to Haynes at this rate.

[Ben Baxter]

All sorted, cheers chaps!

Ah, the things the Haynes manual doesn't bother to tell us, and the illustrations it could really do with having .... Main one - it's one hell of a lot easier taking the gearbox out and putting it back in if the propshaft is taken off first! Took me a good hour of bashing stuff to figure that one out too, bah humbug.

I had a major moment of panic when I turned the key and first put it into gear - was half expecting bangs, crunches and bits of metal to fly places due to me forgetting something.

Did 20 miles up the road and 20 miles back with no problems though, the Herald sounds quieter, pulls better and is generally a pleasure to drive now - amazed what a difference the new clutch has made to reverse gear in particular, think it's been on it's way out the for the whole year and 6000 miles that I've had the car!

Biting point is a bit near the carpet but attributing that to me being bloody shattered and saying "that'll do" when bleeding the clutch, rather than keeping on with it. Lovely to be behind the wheel though, just need to chisel off the inch of muck that's currently making it a pretty brown colour and try and find the floor under the pile of tools scattered around it. And bolt the passenger seat back in.

Small matters, it goes!

[Nick Moore]

It's easier to bleed the clutch if the slave cylinder's tilted to allow the last bubble of air out. If you don't want to unbolt it again, jack the back of the car as high as possible. Bleed it, have a cuppa, bleed it again and it should be right. The Haynes manual doesn't mention the cuppa either, a major oversight.