Stag Engine PI and manifolds

[Flying Farmer]

I will have to go and take some pictures as I have never bothered yet.
I have never tried posting a picture on the forum, in fact I am very new to the world of broadband internet so I haven't had the opportunity before. Any tips on how to go about it?
Neil

[djw113uk]

As long as you can get 200miles from your LPG tank then you can do RBRR on LPG. It get tricky near JOG as they have shut the only lpg station there, and the run into cornwall takes some thinking about too. But it is easily possible, and far cheaper than petrol!

I would be interested in EFI stag.... mostly due nicer LPG running. It is a far nicer and more ecconomical engine than that rover rubbish!! If only you could get the heads of though!

[kenv8pi]

I would be interested in EFI stag.... mostly due nicer LPG running. It is a far nicer and more ecconomical engine than that rover rubbish!! If only you could get the heads of though!

[/quote]

Theres nothing wrong with the rover v8. running a 4.3 on a run at 70 mph i can get betwen 30 and 34 mpg on super unleaded
  Regards  Ken

[StagNL]

Quoted from Flying Farmer

I will have to go and take some pictures as I have never bothered yet.
I have never tried posting a picture on the forum, in fact I am very new to the world of broadband internet so I haven't had the opportunity before. Any tips on how to go about it?
Neil

I'd love to see some of your piccies.   Probably the best way is to upload the photos to a hosting site and then redirect to them there.  There are various ways to do that.  I currently use two photo host sites:

http://photobucket.com/  
http://www.flickr.com/

I've found photobucket to be easier to imbed the photos elsewhere.  

Julian

[Flying Farmer]

If this works it should be a link to my stag injection pictures (had to find a teenager to show me, I think I'm getting old

http://s740.photobucket.com/albums/xx44/stagpowered/stag%20fuel%20injection/

[anthropoidape]

It works, and it's good stuff

[andy thompson]

Found these shots on a USA stag site a few years back... the running car was giving about 200bhp from memory... lot of work but nice job

[andy thompson]

This looked like an interesting project  

[kenv8pi]

Hi andy  Dont some of the Hoden commodores with the v8  have those type inlets. like you said nice job a lot of work
  

   Regards Ken

[StagNL]

Andy, that first one is owned by a bloke in the US, though forgive me in not remembering his name.  I recall that he used a Corvette plenum and modified TR7 inlet manifolds.  I would think a Holden system would therefore fit.
That later project is by the same man I believe.   If that is indeed the case, it is a much modified engine that was built up for use in a Ferrari 250 (GTO?) replica.

Julian

[djw113uk]

Have just spotted this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Triumph-.....;hash=item563d5ab660

Has anyone tried it? I havent looked into what injectors etc are used yet!

[mikew]

I've seen it, doesn't sort out the breathing though, but could be an interim step

mike

[Flying Farmer]

Quoted from mikew

I've seen it, doesn't sort out the breathing though, but could be an interim step

mike

It looks very similar to the system I was using on my efi stag powered TR5. When I took it for a run on enginuitys rolling road a couple of years ago it outperformed every other car there including Tony Harts racing stag (though he was using strombergs).
They were VERY interested in it as it is a relatively easy way to fit injection, my system is slightly different as I am using an old Rover vitesse system
Quite honestly, at the price they are quoting I would not bother doing the job myself as it took ages. It looks very similar to the one they are using on the supercharged stag
Incidentally, I made another inlet manifold out of steel tube with a modified rover vitesse plenum on the top and gained another 45bhp without even touching the fueling or ignition
Neil

[StagNL]

Quoted from Flying Farmer

Incidentally, I made another inlet manifold out of steel tube with a modified rover vitesse plenum on the top and gained another 45bhp without even touching the fueling or ignition
Neil

Be interested to see what that looks like....   Anyway, the standard manifold has so many turns/bends in it that it can only be constricting performance.  I don't doubt 45hp and have in the past though very briefly about making such a manifold for carbs/LPG mixer.
Interesting that in a previous post you mention shortening the inlet tracts/trumpets to improve lower rpm torque.  I seem to recall a bit where Kastner lengthed them for his racing sixes to increase torque...

Julian

[Flying Farmer]

I seem to have upped the game again for injected stag engines. On the rolling road at the TR international at Malvern last week I got 216bhp, an increase of 9 bhp since last year, as a result of tweeking the fueling after last years run. It is still a bit weak as I have run out of air flow capacity on the flap type air flow meter, but at least this year it is a bit weak right across the rev range whereas last year it was weak at the top and too rich in the middle. A touch more fuel pressure should sort it. At the moment the air fuel ratio is weakening off to 14:1 at 6500rpm. If I can get it to 13.5:1 I might crack 220bhp, maybe more if I get round to fitting the Jaguar air flow meter that has been sitting in my garage for the last 2 years!
Neil

[Richard B]

Quoted from Flying Farmer

Incidentally, I made another inlet manifold out of steel tube with a modified rover vitesse plenum on the top and gained another 45bhp without even touching the fueling or ignition

Neil could you post a picture or two? Please....

What did you do regarding the waterways that go from the heads to the manifolds?

[Flying Farmer]

The waterways into the manifold were blanked off and all the cooling water now comes from the rear water transfer housings on the back of the head into a pipe containing the temperature sender for the injection plus the thermotime switch and a mounting for the extra air valve for cold starts. I have a selection of photos on photobucket but it is not possible to see a great deal of detail as it is pretty crowded in there. I intend to build an identical spec engine for my stag this winter and will take some photos as I do it this time. I didnt have a digital camera last time I did it
http://s740.photobucket.com/home/stagpowered
Neil

[StagNL]

I've been acquiring parts after being inspired by flying Neil....  also been browsing his thread over on the SOC forum in regards to this.

Got a plenum, manifold, injectors, ecu and flapper thing from an early Range Rover.  Now the fun begins....

Trouble is I am pretty much a newbie when it comes to EFI so there are some things that I have questions about.  Mainly due to things already being disconnected.
Forgive picture quality, camera in phone.

First pic:  Arrow points to thing under throttle body.  Hose connects it to manifold coolant passage.  What is it and what does it do?
Second pic: 1 points to an 'extra air valve'.  Connected to coolant system and air ways?  What does it do exactly?
2 points to two sensors, I'm guessing coolant temp and thermotime.  What does the latter do?
3 points to thing (filter?) connected to plenum base via hose.  Other end was open when I got it.  What is it?
4 points to tube next to plenum base.  Is that part of a breather system?

[Flying Farmer]

I might as well post the link here as well as the SOC forum, I am actually getting round to building a copy of the EFI manifold I have on the Stag engined TR, and am photographing it while I am doing it and putting the pictures here
http://s740.photobucket.com/albums/xx44/stagpowered/Building%20a%20Stag%20EFI%20inlet%20manifold/
Neil

[Nick Jones]

Julian, Neil,

No arguments on the hardware side, but as far as the management side goes, you will find it easier to get the fuelling right across the rev/load range using a mappable ECU rather than trying to tweak the old Rover system.  You won't even need an air flow meter then.  You can also control the ignition timing which also brings big benefits in my experience.  I like Megasquirt because it's cheap and I'm mean but there are many ECU choices.

Cheers

Nick

[stagdad]

[quote=699]I've been acquiring parts after being inspired by flying Neil....  also been browsing his thread over on the SOC forum in regards to this.

First pic:  Arrow points to thing under throttle body.  Hose connects it to manifold coolant passage.  What is it and what does it do?

I'm sure Neil will put me straight but looking at the one I had a while back I think it was a manifold heater ,Just an in and out to a chamber under the manifold for coolant to warm it up.

Cheers Steve

[Flying Farmer]

Quoted from StagNL

I've been acquiring parts after being inspired by flying Neil....  also been browsing his thread over on the SOC forum in regards to this.

Got a plenum, manifold, injectors, ecu and flapper thing from an early Range Rover.  Now the fun begins....

Trouble is I am pretty much a newbie when it comes to EFI so there are some things that I have questions about.  Mainly due to things already being disconnected.
Forgive picture quality, camera in phone.

First pic:  Arrow points to thing under throttle body.  Hose connects it to manifold coolant passage.  What is it and what does it do?

Second pic: 1 points to an 'extra air valve'.  Connected to coolant system and air ways?  What does it do exactly?
2 points to two sensors, I'm guessing coolant temp and thermotime.  What does the latter do?
3 points to thing (filter?) connected to plenum base via hose.  Other end was open when I got it.  What is it?
4 points to tube next to plenum base.  Is that part of a breather system?

Bit with pipes attatched is to heat the throttle butterfly area to prevent icing in damp weather.Never realy needed
1 Extra air valve increses idle speed when cold. Attatched to a water heated hot spot, it gradually shuts off as engine temp increases
2 coolant temp sender for injection system, thermotime switch determines how long the cold start injector operates,
3 some form of electricaly operated air valve, have come across them before but never used one
4 This pipe takes air from in front of the throttle butterfly and delivers it into the plenum via the extra air valve. On the vitesse it also supplied an emissions related over run valve which was about as usefull as the spring loaded poppet valves in SU carburettor butterflies.On the Range rover the spare end was capped off
Neil

[Flying Farmer]

Quoted from Nick Jones

Julian, Neil,

No arguments on the hardware side, but as far as the management side goes, you will find it easier to get the fuelling right across the rev/load range using a mappable ECU rather than trying to tweak the old Rover system.  You won't even need an air flow meter then.  You can also control the ignition timing which also brings big benefits in my experience.  I like Megasquirt because it's cheap and I'm mean but there are many ECU choices.

Cheers

Nick

The only reason I used the Rover ECU is because I got a complete injection system, and the fact that it did not control ignition was one less thing to worry about when I first started messing with it. As it happens the Rover ECU works perfectly well on the stag engine once the spring tension in the air flow meter is altered to correct the mixture. The only area it falls down is it runs a bit rich on cold start, but can be fooled with a switched resistor. I agree a fully mappable system is probably the way to go, but I have two Stag engines and one Rover running the same system, and if I get any faults (hasn't happened except ECU failure caused by dodgy recon alternator), then it is easy to swap bits to fault find. Mapped ecu would be better with fast road cams as I have had to fit an air bleed (TR6 style) to weaken the idle mixture. This is probably poor idle vacuum upsetting the fuel pressure regulator
Neil

[StagNL]

Neil, thank you very much for the clear descriptions of what those items do.  Is a lot clearer now.  
A small question remains...  The air flow meter spring tension:  Is this a case of fitting a different spring or did you do something else?
I also got a 'power resistor' box thingy.  Seller didn't know what it did but I see someone else has it wired close to the air flow meter.  

Nick, I chose the Rover route a la Neil because it is possible and if he and others can do it, then so can I.  Also the parts were relatively cheap considering prices here.  Got to add that a mappable ECU such as offered by Megasquirt is an idea I have thought about and maybe will fit in future but right now I don't have a laptop to do anything with it.  That alone adds to the cost - which I am trying, difficult it may be, to keep low.

Julian

[James]

You can make do with a cheap laptop, nothing special at all. In fact an old one is good because it'll have a serial port.

I presume the Rover system has sensors etc already installed? In which case the install cost can't be more than £300-400?