6-3-1 Exhaust Manifold

[mowerman]

Having spent loads of money on a 6-3-1 manifold I have spent all weekend trying to fit it  :-/  Having now finally got it on (just!) after removing the starter motor and steering column, the clearance is minimal. Only 4mm between the steering column and the manifold and I`ve had to adapt some nuts to enable fitment. I have no problem with the quality of the manifold, just a bit concerned with clearance ie will it touch or foul the column under acceleration? Has anyone else had the same problems?

[Clive]

just the reason I have never bothered. Two friends both had horrible problems, the rimmers supplied versions would not even bolt up to a head and 2 were sent back. He got the usual "never had any problems before" story. The phoenix ones fitted to both cars were better, but one had to have the collector cut and welded to get it to fit........
Why can't somebody make one that fits??? I might buy one of those!
What make was yours?

Clive

[Nick Jones]

I have a Pheonix one on my Vitesse.  It was a bit of a pain to fit (Pheonix did point out it is intended for a GT6 but I hear of similar problems on them).

Problems Were:
- No way it would fit with the T2000 pre-engaged starter (but I knew that!).  I fitted a reduction gear Nippon Denso starter with the Canley conversion plates.
- Was interfering with the steering column.  I had to raise and angle the engine as well as tap a small flat on the offending manifold tube to gain clearance.  Even now this is only 4 - 5 mm but this does seem to be enough.
- There did not appear to be any way it would fit with the standard inlet manifold - significant interferance in several areas.  This wasn't really an issue for me as I was fitting EFI with bespoke inlet anyway, but I was surprised.
- Really increases underbonnet temperatures (not surprising really).  Has not been a huge issue with the EFI but I reckon it could be a problem with Carbs.  Tape wrapping or heat shield strongly recommended.

Nick

[mowerman]

Clive, mine was bought from Jigsaw so i believe it`s a Phoenix version?  The quality of the product and the service from Jigsaw was good, no complaints there.  I`m a bit worried now about the heating problems, maybe I`ll have to wrap the manifold, altho` I do have heatshields fitted to the carbs, I also hope I get the improved performance with all the mods I`m carrying out :-/

[Tim Bancroft]

Has'nt TLD done a re-designed version of this manifold for Phoenix? Evidently it fits- how nice that an item that costs so much can actually be put onto the car - well done Phoenix!!!! 

Good idea to change from using studs and nuts to attach underneath to using cap headed fixings.

[DaveKent]

i had to cut bend and weld my phoenix four branch manifold in three different places to have any chance of clearance on the spitfire, it was a lovely piece of kit, shame it didn't fit.

[JohnD]

mowerman, All,
The Sb has a TriumphTune pattern 6-3-1 manifold, and it's a doddle to fit, except the two nuts to the head under Primaries 1 and 6.  Those need a shortened spanner to get a decent throw.  It clears the steering and the starter by miles.

Moss may still sell them.  They sold me a new 3-1 collector five years ago.

John

[JohnD]

mowerman, All,
The Sb has a TriumphTune pattern 6-3-1 manifold, and it's a doddle to fit, except the two nuts to the head under Primaries 1 and 6.  Those need a shortened spanner to get a decent throw.   It clears the steering and the starter by miles.

Moss may still sell them.  They sold me a new 3-1 collector five years ago.

John

[Nick Jones]

Pheonix 631

[Nick Jones]

Tight fit here due to this silly elbow.....  Theres about 4 - 5 mm here in fact and it doesn't seem to touch - it hasn't melted anthing in 5000 odd miles either, so I guess it's ok.  Did wonder why I paid so much though!!

Moss denied the existence of theirs when I spoke to them  2.5 years ago - as did Mike the Pipe (who made the original GT ones I believe) but perhaps I spoke to the wrong people?

Quality bandaging job BTW John!

[mowerman]

Thats the one! As I said really good quality. Good suggestion from Tim to use cap heads instead of nuts and studs, will change mine before it`s too late ;)

[mowerman]

Just seen your second picture Nick, mine looks slightly different on the elbow, not quite as severe a bend!

[Richard B]

But JohnD the SB has a Nippon Denso Starter Motor; a Lucus Pre-Engaged will not fit, I know I tried and I had to go Japanese.

[Freebird]

There was a tubular manifold on my Vit when I bought it. It is two pairs of 3 into 1, joined by a 2 into 1 next to the sump. It sits a lot closer to the block than the photos above. I have no idea where it came from though.

Glen.

PS. Steve - running sweet as a nut mate. Thanks for the bits.

[JohnD]

Richard B,
maybe so for a Lucas pre-engaged, but this engine in the old blue Vitesse had a standard Lucas starter, and - fitting is a doddle.

Firebird,
usually something engineering that is pretty, works, but every rule gets proved and that 3-2-1 is it.  Looks very swoopy, but a 3-2-1 is just like wings and slicks on a Trabant - it won't go any faster 'coz it just doesn't work.

Nick,
that Phoenix hasn't been hit, it has danced with the Ugly Stick.  I can't work out how the TT design avoids that awful kink, I haven't got a naked pic of it and it's too cold to go outside.  3&4 go to the bottom outside collector pipe, 2&5 to the top pipe and 1&6 to the bottom inside - that's different, and may package better.    I think the TT may put the 1&6 junction to the front of the other two, to let them come inboard, instead of stacking them together.  That may compromise equality of primary length but to be honest, the Phoenix is worse!

John

John

[Richard B]

Hi JohnD,

Yes I had the Lucas Pre-engaged  fitted to my MkIII PI Spitfire; when I fitted the 6-3-1, I had to regress to the standard GT6/Vitesse starter motors. Unfortunately I kept burning these out trying to crank over a 2.5PI.

They used to last about 6 months. After the third starter I converted to the Nippon Denso.

[Spitfire2500]

[quote by=Freebird link=Blah.pl?b=hervit,m=1166434360,s=13 date=1166472919]There was a tubular manifold on my Vit when I bought it. It is two pairs of 3 into 1, joined by a 2 into 1 next to the sump.[/quote]

I reckon that's the 6-2-1 you find listed in the venerable TriumphTune catalogue under part number TT1700.

I'll get my anorak...;D

The 6-3-1 that TriumphTune did for the GT6/Vitesse was TT1740 and is still listed in the Moss catalogue here (athough what's pictured looks nothing like the original TT1740 -- e.g. in the original TT1740 nos 1 & 6 joined behind the pipes for 2, 3 , 4 & 5 -- clearly not the case in the picture):

http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/MossUK/ProductList.aspx?SubSubCategoryID=TR5_uktrs-089

Edited to add: Only listed for TRs now so maybe doesn't fit GT6/Vitesse in any case...

[Spitfire2500]

The somewhat conceptual sketch of the original TT1740 actually looks a lot more like the Phoenix manifold but with a much tidier layout suggesting that it may have avoided the spaghetti junction the Phoneix one seems to have at the bottom (but this is pure speculation on my part cause I've never seen a real one).

[JohnD]

S2500,
That link to the Moss site shows that they now use 'TT1740' for a 6-2-1 manifold, that they have the gall to describe as "6 into 3 Pulse type manifold".  It ain't 6-3, it ain't pulse-type, though it is a manifold.  So "Full-Race"?  Trades description violation, I think.

Your second post shows the original TT1740, that I have.  I'd better treat it carefully.
John

[Spitfire2500]

[quote by=JohnD link=Blah.pl?b=hervit,m=1166434360,s=18 date=1166519013]That link to the Moss site shows that they now use 'TT1740' for a 6-2-1 manifold, that they have the gall to describe as "6 into 3 Pulse type manifold". [/quote]

I sat looking at the Moss one last night and figured it had to be a 6-2-1 but ended up thinking I was having a thick moment cause it clearly says 6-3-1 in the description... :-/

Edited to add:

Moss still do a 6-3-1 that looks not unlike the TT1740 here:

http://www.moss-europe.co.uk/MossUK/ProductList.aspx?SubSubCategoryID=TR5_uktrs-088

but again it's only listed for TRs so no idea if it'll fit GT6/Vitesse (and I doubt if Moss know anymore...)

[Tim Bancroft]

The TT1740 does not fit when using with carbs as the inlet manifold fouls, I did have one on the GT6 back in 1989(?) but I had to space the inlet manifold away from the head and slightly dent the primary pipes. Still have it somewhere- not sure where though.
I always had problems with getting a decent gas tight join at the collector and failed the MOT on this, so took it off for the poor 6>2>1 the car still has fitted.

Cap Head bolts- not my idea- Dale Barker at Moordale Motors.

We were talking about these last night at NL meeting- Dave Kent mentioned that he has fitted a 4>2>1Pheonix to his mk4 Spit and has experienced loads of problems. For the life of me I cannot believe that a company that makes exhaust systems cannot sell manifolds and systems that fit.

[Spitfire2500]

[quote by=timbancroft61 link=Blah.pl?b=hervit,m=1166434360,s=20 date=1166525599]so took it off for the poor 6>2>1 the car still has fitted.[/quote]

Same here Tim -- got a 6-2-1 on the Spit 2.5 -- TT1700SS as it happens  :D -- for exactly the same reason.  Agree that you've got to wonder why they can't make stuff that fits especially at the prices we have to pay  :(

The TT stuff at the time (late 80s early 90s) was manufactured by Falcon -- wonder what happened to them? Didn't by any chance crash and burn only to rise from the ashes like a, er, Phoenix  ;D

Have to say I'm a bit wary of using cap head bolts for exhaust fixings. Had a number of bad experiences with them on Land Rovers (they're used to bolt the EGR valves to the exhaust manifold on the Tdi diesel engines). Probably no worse at the end of day than the problems we have with studs etc but not convinced personally.

[JohnD]

S2500,
That looks better, much more like the original!  BUT, the collectors on the primary joins look bulky, unlike the original which is a proper pipe-to-pipe join, and the 3-1 collector is welded on, unlike the original which is a sliding fit.  So it might not be so easy to get in.
They're selling it for road use, so I suppose that's why it's all welded up.

And Tim, I had that same TT 6-3-1 on my old Vit on carbs, BUT they were 2000 saloon HS6 carbs and manifold.  Maybe that gives you that little bit more room!

Putting bolts in place of studs may mechanically be satisfactory, but not if you need to strip and rebuild regularly.   Cast iron is not suitable for repetitive tightening and loosening and will wear.   A stud, with bronze nuts that won't rust to them, is (IMHO) better.

John

[Tim Bancroft]

John,

The HS6 2500S manifold is angled and sticks the carbs up in the air- bonnet clearance issues I'm afraid.

I suppose at sometime next year I may buy a Phoenix manifold- might see what sort of deal I can obtain at Stoneleigh- Colin Wake reminded me that they are open to deals at this show.

See your point about using set screws- however using cap heads does make the job relatively easy.

BTW are you bringing the Vitesse to Silverstone for the MGoT TD?

[Spitfire2500]

[quote by=JohnD link=Blah.pl?b=hervit,m=1166434360,s=22 date=1166544941]That looks better, much more like the original!  BUT, the collectors on the primary joins look bulky, unlike the original which is a proper pipe-to-pipe join[/quote]

Interesting, sounds like the original was the real McCoy. I can see why Phoenix would want to use those collectors on the primary joins -- will make it much easier to manufacture IMHO -- but they are builky and must surely be the reason their effort looks like spaghetti junction compared to the original.

Cheerss,