Hello!. New member with a few electrical questions

[jamiepeers]

Hello all. First post to say i am looking forward to spending some time here, and learn about the spitfire along the way. I have a couple of questions to ask, and was hoping you guys could help me out. I'm not a stranger to working on cars at all, but regarding the spitfire, this is certainly the most old school car i have owned, and so things like carbs etc are pretty much a first for me in terms of having them.

A little background first if thats OK

I have recently come by MK4 spitfire 1300 ownership through my uncle who sadly passed away earlier this year, but left me his spitfire. The car was originally bought by him as a runner, and had had a 1500 engine put in , in which the big ends were shot. He had the original (i believe) 1300 supplied with the car which has been reinstalled. At the moment, as per everything typical about my uncle, there had been a lot of interest put into the car in the first few months he had it, after which it has pretty much been mothballed until i have taken ownership. In this time a myriad of new parts had been sourced and bought, and i believe that there are all if not pretty much all of the parts to get it all back together and running properly.

Firts job is really to get the car running, and this is where i am in need of help.

My uncle had previously told me that the carbs needed rebuilding. Prior to this it looks as if he has had some trouble getting the car to run acceptably. I decided to rebuild the carbs and start from scratch and so bought a rebuild kit from rimmer bros. I have completed this but haven't installed them yet as i wanted to check if i have a spark first. By the way, i do know that the carbs are the correct HSU2 items as i have the larger "4"'s here on the bench

As said the car looks as if it has been having trouble running even at idle, and my previous atttempts to quickly start the car with easy start when the carbs were originally on proved fruitless hence my spark query.

I am getting fuel as my inlet to the carbs is open at the moment and a small crank of the engine reveals a squirt of fuel.

I have looked at the wiring diagram for the car through haynes manual and through this link here http://www.triumphspitfire.com/images/wiring/MKIVwire.jpg

1. I have a black and white wire off the "-" side of the coil going to the distributor, i believe this is correct.

2. I have 2 black wires from the "+" of the coil. One looks as if it joins via tape to a yellow and white wire, which looks as if that should be correct according to the UK diagram above, this dissapears into a taped loom after about 6 inches ( ignition switch feed??). The other is black all the way and goes to a small cylinder which is screwed to the coil mounting point.

I can assume this is the earth side of whatever it it, i thought it may be the ballast resistor, does it sound like it? Its about 1 inch long and 1/2 inch in diameter. Someone has suggested it may in fact be a noise suppressor

3. I am getting only about 2.4V on the "+" coil side when ignition is switched on, this remains so when cranking. I do know my battery was a little off and used a booster pack at this time but i think next time a fesh battery at least is in order, so this will be done as a necessity anyways

4. I have bought an accuspark electronic ignition conversion for the car and also a 12V coil, ballast type but am loathe to change anything until i get the car running as it should originally. I know the OE coil is a 6v type, so will this 12V type work when i finalloy get the thing running?

Can anyone advise of what i should be reading and where on a healthy car, and maybe help out for turning this over?

I have many many more questions but i think this is certainly enough for now

Many thanks again

Jamie

[bodders1]

Hi Jamie - welcome to the forum!


Running a 12v coil in a ballasted system (with the ballast resistor still in place) will result in a weak spark.  

+2.4V at the +ve terminal of the coil seems to be on the low side - you should see 6-->8v with the ignition turned on, and full battery voltage while cranking.

You mention that your engine is getting fuel.  Is it fresh fuel?  Petrol left sitting in the tank for a long time "goes off" leading to starting difficulties rough running and in many cases complete failure to start.

where in the country are you?  If anywhere near me (M3 J4a) I would be happy to come round and help get it started.

[lancepar]

Nice to see you made it across, I'm sure the members on here will be able to get things going for you.

If it was my car I would be very sparing with the easy start, it's thought engines get addicted to it :'(
Better to put some new fuel in an atomiser spray and squirt that into the carbs while turning it over.
When the ignition wiring has been sorted I would then check that the points were sparking and then with a plug from the engne or a spare plug, check there is a spark at the plug.
The small cylinder earthed to the coil is a suppressor for the radio etc.
Is that the wiring diagram I sent you, I thought I had sent one for a RHD?

8)

[jamiepeers]

Hi Lance, thanks for the link. Yep, thats the diagram.

So it would appear i only have one wire from my "+" terminal on the coil, discounting the noise suppressor. Does this sound about right?

FYI i am running what appears to be the original coil, although i do have a new "blue" coil from accuspark, i haven't fitted anything to the car as yet, as then i would be chasing my tail even more so regarding staring issues.

Bodders, the fuel in the tank will indeed be very old, and no doubt again this could cause me issues, but i am wanting to check i have everything OK on the spark side of things, which i think i have not, hence my issue even with easy start and my low coil readings. By the way i am located in liverpool and so a fair whack away from the M3, but many thanks for the kind offer. I'm sure you guys will help me on my way remotely

Dies my car have a ballast incorporated into the wiring then, and if so how would i go about changing for a new coil/which type etc, as i simply referred to the accuspark website and got the blue coil. I got this as i envisaged the accuspark ignition would need a 12v coil (although as said nothing is fitted as yet)

Would i simply be better off with a new 6v coil from the likes of rimmers??

[Richard B]

The HS2 carbs are for the 1300, the HS4 are for a 1500. If you still have the 1500 in then you will have to fiddle quite a bite to get it running on the smaller HS2's.

Personally I would go back to the 1300.  :)

[Dannyb]

4540 wrote:

Hi Lance, thanks for the link. Yep, thats the diagram.

So it would appear i only have one wire from my "+" terminal on the coil, discounting the noise suppressor. Does this sound about right?

FYI i am running what appears to be the original coil, although i do have a new "blue" coil from accuspark, i haven't fitted anything to the car as yet, as then i would be chasing my tail even more so regarding staring issues.

Bodders, the fuel in the tank will indeed be very old, and no doubt again this could cause me issues, but i am wanting to check i have everything OK on the spark side of things, which i think i have not, hence my issue even with easy start and my low coil readings. By the way i am located in liverpool and so a fair whack away from the M3, but many thanks for the kind offer. I'm sure you guys will help me on my way remotely

Dies my car have a ballast incorporated into the wiring then, and if so how would i go about changing for a new coil/which type etc, as i simply referred to the accuspark website and got the blue coil. I got this as i envisaged the accuspark ignition would need a 12v coil (although as said nothing is fitted as yet)

Would i simply be better off with a new 6v coil from the likes of rimmers??

[Dannyb]

oops never put my pennyworth in last reply.

I also have the blue accuspark on my late b1500 with the pink ballast wire connected. No problems at all.

[jamiepeers]

Cheers folks.

I am not with the car at the moment and there lies the rub. Until i get the garage door working properly i can only access the garage through my aunts house, meaning  both i, and her, have to be off work which is a pain regarding getting to it regularly.

Hopefully i am back at the car tomorrow, with a good battery, and will be able to photograph the coil setup in question.

However in the meantime i can only say that there are 2 wires form the "+" of the coil. One as you say is a noise suppressor, the other i assume goes to the ignition switch, and so does this mean i have a system with no ballast?

[jamiepeers]

Richard_B wrote:

The HS2 carbs are for the 1300, the HS4 are for a 1500. If you still have the 1500 in then you will have to fiddle quite a bite to get it running on the smaller HS2's.

Personally I would go back to the 1300.  :)

Hi Richard. The car is running with the 1300 reinstalled and the HS2's........ well, not exactly running  ;)

[jamiepeers]

Right guys.

I went to the car today and have had absolutely no joy, but i have taken some pictures and took some readings etc. Hopefully this will give you some insight and maybe you can help.

First, i have been using this diagram, which is the same as the Haynes manual for a RHD MK4 spit, for reference.
http://www.triumphspitfire.com/images/wiring/MKIVwire.jpg

Now, with a fully charged battery installed, 12.2V across the terminals with it unceonnected, i get  the following.

2.04V from the "+" to earth with the ignition on. Same also from the coil output to earth



I have what looks like the correct WY wire running to the coil "+".

Tracing back the wire into the taped up terminal i metered for continuity at this joint and found its feed, by splicing the insulation back





You can make out what is a pink and white wire which is a little confusing as this would seem to suggest the ballast wire setup as per a 1500. I have no visible ballast resistor anywhere, and my coil meters over at 1.6 ohms suggesting a ballast system, perhaps hence the join shown above, and indeed the reference to it in the wiring diagram.  I have tried a brand new accuspark blue connected up in the same way and am still only getting over 2v

I tried metering straight through to the "-" LT lead at the distributor, with the "-" wire grounded through it and still only got 2V



It was suggested the points and condensor also needed to be sat on an insulating plate. When i removed these to check they were screwed directly to the dizzy base. Not sure if this is correct?





With it connected up i get no spark when opening the points.

Looking at my starter solenoid i have the WR wire connected to my ignition switch, as i get 12v when cranking, however i only have 3 terminals on my solenoid, not the 4 as shown in the diagram, and it looks as if the WY wire terminal isn't there?






I am really really stuck now. I ran a wire straight from the battery "+" to the coil "+" still with no joy.

I'm feeling very beaten by it all at this moment.

[DaveKent]

mine currently looks like this, sorry for itself, but it does start!

[DaveKent]

i've removed the ballast though, and run a 12v coil and pertronix ignition.
i'd give your distributor a clean before you try to run it again, if i were you.

[DaveKent]

it does look like you are missing a terminal from the solenoid though!

[lancepar]

Here is a check list, which I have not asked other listers regarding accuracy, but here it is anyway.....

Testing for a Ballast Resistor or Ballast Wire on Negative earth car.
1.     Check voltage of battery with volt meter and note it down.
2.     Remove the wires from the negative side of the coil (Low Tension from dizzy).
3.     Connect a temporary wire from the neg’ terminal of the coil to earth.
4.     Turn on only the ignition.
5.     Check the coil voltage by putting the red probe on the + terminal and the black probe to the neg’ terminal.
6.     If the reading is < 80% of the noted battery voltage there is a resister in the system, if > 80% there is probably not.
7.     Turn off ignition.
8.     Remove the temporary wire and reconnect the wires. If the reading was less than 80% the coil will probably be marked 6v and if the reading is more than 80% it will probably be a 12v coil.
Testing Type of coil.
Remove all wires from the coil and with the meter set at Ohms a reading across the terminals of around 1.5 Ohms indicates a 6v coil and 3.0 Ohms indicates a 12v coil.

8)

[jamiepeers]

Hi Lance.

I'll print this out and try again tomorrow.

My real worry at this moment is i am only getting 2V at the coil and this is my biggest worry at the moment. Also my starter solenoid only has 3 terminals, not 4 as shown in the Haynes and the diagram you sent me.

Now the thing is i know this car was a runner as my uncle drove it home from london up to liverpool, and although the original engine now resides and i know it has/had a fuelling issue, i have no spark, and i don't think he has changed any of the wiring which is puzzling. Certainly not the starter solenoid.

I am getting really stressed with this, this should be the bloody easy thing on the car, a coil setup and i'm tearing my hair out! AARRRGGGHHHHH

[junkuser]

The fault sounds further back in the system.
Would be worth while checking the voltages in the ignition system starting at the battery and looking for voltage drop at each connection in the circuit right through to the coil.
As you have not mentioned any smoke, a bad connection is more likely than a short and that bad connection could be at a junction or the ignition switch contacts.

Maybe your uncle has rigged some tricky, anti-theft device.

[jamiepeers]

Hi Junkuser.

My main problem here is that the wiring diagram doesn't seem to correspond fully to my wiring, although it looks original.

Looking back at my picture it would seem i have a pink and white wire tee'd into the Wy + coil feed. This is indicative of a ballast wire in say a 1500, but it doesn't give a real insight in the haynes diagram. What i will say is the haynes suggests a ballast and a 6v coil, although i have no physical ballast resistor mounted to the bulkhead etc etc

Furthermore, my starter solenoid only has 3 posts as opposed to the 4 posts shown on the haynes.

I have the 2 posts with the correct amount of brown wires joined to it. I also have the WR wire to it which shows 12v at cranking. However i am missing the final post which would seem should be feeding the coil its constant 12 v/(6v if a ballast?) at running condition.

My uncle has had the car running, when he drove it back at purchase and i am 99% sure he hasn't messed with any ignition based wiring and so i am really puzzled.

Any idea on the 12v constant feed to the coil being missing from my solenoid post? Surely someone is running similar setup and can confirm?

I have  a feeling this will be something that turns out to be relatively simple in the grand scheme of things but for now i am a little perplexed

Cheers

[SpitNoir]

Hi Jamie. Seems to me that with a car this old and having sat for so long, I would go through and check/clean/replace all the main electrical connections and inspect every one between the ignition switch, fuse panel, earthing bolt at steering rack, Negative battery leads everywhere and basically just give them all a little TLC and cleaning.

I would say that if you're only getting 2v to the coil +, then you should check the other end of that wire first. If it's coming straight from the back of the ignition switch, then you should check voltage there.
If you have battery voltage at the switch, but not at the coil, then you either have an old worn out wire, or a buggered connection somewhere in-between. Resistor wires can get old and tired from all the heat, and partially burn out. Leaving only a few strands of thin wire to carry the current to the coil. Even if it was never a resistor wire, it can still get old and tired.
I don't have my diagrams in front of me, but does that wire originate at the key, or does it come from a voltage stabilizer or other such component?
Either way, check the connections.

Since you tried jumpering a new wire straight from the battery to the coil and it still didn't work, you obviously have another issue as well. Points need to be clean and adjusted relatively precisely to get a good start. They also need to ground (sorry, earth) to the plate or the system won't know they're opening and closing.
So do what DaveKent said and clean up the distributor body and plate and mating surface at the engine the best you can. The distributor acts as a ground/earth connector in a system like this. The points and condenser are mounted directly to the base plate that has a braided earth connection to the outer body of the distributor. From there the earthing circuit completes on the engine block.
If you don't have a good clean connection between all the components then, you can chase your tail for eons before it will work again of it's own accord.

That's why the grounding circuits are more important than the even manufacturers realized when they were building the cars. When all was new and clean as a whistle, things just worked. Add 40+ years of rust and grime and owner modifications to that mix, and things tend to take a different attitude.
I've since added several grounding circuits to the '65 so that if I do have issues, it won't be from bad connections or incomplete circuits. I've got battery to body. Battery to starter bolt. Starter bolt to frame. Frame to rack bolt where the factory earth wires connect near the front. And two more for good measure. One from the body to the clutch housing and one from the body to the frame on the right side. Then, for good measure, I connected a small wire to the small screw on the distributor body-to-cap clip, and ran it straight over to a coil mounting screw.

I don't have any electrical issues at all. Well, other than rusty tail light sockets, rusty fuses, funky turn-signal and headlight switch issues. Other than that, I'm good!
Now, if I can just fiddle with the carburettors one more time, I'm sure I'll have it singing my song.

Best of luck!

Paul

[junkuser]

"However i am missing the final post which would seem should be feeding the coil its constant 12 v/(6v if a ballast?) at running condition."
I don't have any experience with Spitfires other than the first model but generally the fourth connection on a starting solenoid is to supply full voltage to a coil that normally runs with a resistance in series, to give a better spark when starting.  This overcomes the voltage drop due to the load of the starter and is only functional whilst the solenoid is activated, so the coil is only fed via the resistance when running.

The two volts at the coil you mention is the part I would be trying to trace out.

[junkuser]

Looking again at your photos I realise you are testing the voltage at the coil with it in circuit so the low reading could be due to downstream drain.  I had wrongly assumed the supply was isolated when you tested.
If the supply to the coil is isolated, what is the voltage available to the coil with the ignition ON?

[lancepar]

junkuser wrote:

Looking again at your photos I realise you are testing the voltage at the coil with it in circuit so the low reading could be due to downstream drain.  I had wrongly assumed the supply was isolated when you tested.
If the supply to the coil is isolated, what is the voltage available to the coil with the ignition ON?

This is why I compiled (borrowed) a check list.

Assuming the points are refitted, re-wired etc and with all these electrics conveniently grouped under the bonnet, can't a simple 'hot wire' circuit be drawn up just to get the thing going?
Does the centre of the solenoid no longer press in to turn the starter these days?

8)

[jamiepeers]

Thanks a lot guys.

A lot for me to be getting on with there, but certainly some good starting (excuse th pun) points.

3040 wrote:

Hi Jamie. Seems to me that with a car this old and having sat for so long, I would go through and check/clean/replace all the main electrical connections and inspect every one between the ignition switch, fuse panel, earthing bolt at steering rack, Negative battery leads everywhere and basically just give them all a little TLC and cleaning.

Paul, will do. Just a quick question. I noticed a small wire bolted to thye drivers side steering rack mount. Is this the earth wire?

3040 wrote:

I would say that if you're only getting 2v to the coil +, then you should check the other end of that wire first. If it's coming straight from the back of the ignition switch, then you should check voltage there.
If you have battery voltage at the switch, but not at the coil, then you either have an old worn out wire, or a buggered connection somewhere in-between. Resistor wires can get old and tired from all the heat, and partially burn out. Leaving only a few strands of thin wire to carry the current to the coil. Even if it was never a resistor wire, it can still get old and tired.
I don't have my diagrams in front of me, but does that wire originate at the key, or does it come from a voltage stabilizer or other such component?

This part i am not sure of. One wire on the diagram does indeed go back to the ignition switch, but another looks like it should go to a 4th post on the starter solenoid, which i haven't got.

My coil meters out at 1.5ohms and so i think i have a ballast system. The PW wire would indicate so at the terminal i exposed. Assuming this is so i could check at the ignition. Say i have 12V there, how do i run another ballast wire in?

junkuser wrote:

If the supply to the coil is isolated, what is the voltage available to the coil with the ignition ON?

Hi junkuser. replies are appreciated, but i get a little lost sometimes! What exactly do you mean?

Thanks again Lance. Bet you're sorry you asked me over here now!

1704 wrote:

This is why I compiled (borrowed) a check list.

Assuming the points are refitted, re-wired etc and with all these electrics conveniently grouped under the bonnet, can't a simple 'hot wire' circuit be drawn up just to get the thing going?
Does the centre of the solenoid no longer press in to turn the starter these days?

8)

Yes, i have the starter button in between the terminals. I have not reinstalled the carbs as yet, as i wanted to make sure i was getting a nice spark before hopefully reinstalling. I haven't done it simply as i don't have that spark.

Are you suggesting at some point i could simply "jury rig" the coil by wiring directly from the battery to simply test the system after the ignition switch part of the circiut?

Guys. I am sorry if i am frustrating you, but all of your replies and help is very much appreciated. I will try to get to the car today. As said Saturday is a definate bet if i cannot.

Once again thanks

[lancepar]

Once upon a time the centre on the starter motor relay could be pushed in to turn over the engine, but I don't know if this was the case with the Spitfire. I'm housebound at the moment otherwise I would go and try mine and take some piccy's.
Therefore if a 12v supply was connected to the + side of the coil from the battery then by pressing the centre button would spin the engine and start the car.

Am I right here guys???

Between now and the weekend I would try and get hold of a Manual, it will help, especially rebuilding the distributor.

8)

[Spitfire1500]

Hi Lance,

I can confirm that the starter solenoid and starter motor no longer have this button on them! :(

Kind regards,

David

[jamiepeers]

Right guys. I managed to get 2 hours witht he car tioday. I conducted some tests as you have suggested.

First off

1704 wrote:

Testing for a Ballast Resistor or Ballast Wire on Negative earth car.
1.     Check voltage of battery with volt meter and note it down. 12.2V
2.     Remove the wires from the negative side of the coil (Low Tension from dizzy).
3.     Connect a temporary wire from the neg’ terminal of the coil to earth.
4.     Turn on only the ignition.
5.     Check the coil voltage by putting the red probe on the + terminal and the black probe to the neg’ terminal. 5.9V
6.     If the reading is < 80% of the noted battery voltage there is a resister in the system, if > 80% there is probably not.
7.     Turn off ignition.
8.     Remove the temporary wire and reconnect the wires. If the reading was less than 80% the coil will probably be marked 6v and if the reading is more than 80% it will probably be a 12v coil.
Testing Type of coil.
Remove all wires from the coil and with the meter set at Ohms a reading across the terminals of around 1.5 Ohms indicates a 6v coil and 3.0 Ohms indicates a 12v coil. 1.8ohms

8)

So. It looks like i have a ballast system as suspected.

Then i did as Spitnoir suggested and checked all earthing points. All were good with no more than 0.2 ohms anywhere, and more like less than 0.1 in most places. Engine block, dizzy base plate, steering rack mount etc.


I then checked for 12v at the ignition switch. I have 4 white wires coming out of 2 seperate terminals on the back of the switch. These are both 12v when in key position 1. This looks correct and i think the only reason there are 2 terminals is its physically hard to fit 4 wires to one terminal. I am pretty sure these relate to output 3 on the diagram. I also have a RW wire which runs to the starter solenoid, and another N wire also to the starter solenoid which appears correct
Now remember this join here?





I split all 3 wires and found i only got 12v at the PW wire when the ignition was on. All good as this suggests a ballast.  I also metered this out to one of the white wires on the back of the ign switch. All good.

The other WY wires in the pic i also split. One metered out and went to the coil + and if i joined this to the PW wire i also got 12V to the + side of the coil. At last!. However, when i joined the other WY wire my voltage dropped to the 2V again. I split it and traced it back. If you look at the 2nd picture above, it traced back to that small box on the bulkhead, the bottom left WY wire. If i disconnected that wire my voltage rose again to 12v. ALso if iconnected the WY wire, but disconnected the purple and yellow wire on the bottom right of that box, my voltage again rose to 12v

I am at the stage where i am ready to try to turn the car over. Could anyone help me out with what the box on the bulkhead is and perhaps what the purple and yellow wire is? My only reason for stopping is i have drained the battery again

Finally i have installed the points and condensor. Does the lead from the condensor connect to the points spring arm AND the LT - wire?

I am slowly getting there with your help guys, its much appreciated