123 ignition experience?

[RogerD]

Hi!

I have finally decided to buy a new distributor (123 ignition) for my 1966 Vitesse MkI 2-Litre (not modified in any way, twin strombergs and standard exhaust). I have searched on several Triumph forums about 123 ignition dizzys, and although I did find some interesting info I still have some questions.

I have no problem regarding the lack of tachometer drive, I can use an electronic version. There are quite a lot of information on the forums about 123 dizzys, but not so much about how the engine actually performs with this dizzy (long time driving experience) and also which of the 16 settings to use. Especially feed-back from owners of 2-litre Triumph engines (Vitesse, GT6 or 2000 Saloons). Does anyone on this forum have a 2-litre 6 pot with a 123 dizzy? If so, how do you think it performs?

Then there is also debate on the forums about whether to buy the fully programmable version or the “standard” 123 with 16 settings. I can understand the pros with the programmable version, but it is very expensive and I have a limited budget. Besides, I have this mental disorder (perfectionism) that comes and goes, and I’m afraid that if I had a dizzy with a million different possible settings, I would just continue to adjust the damn thing until I die trying to find THE Optimal Setting. If I only have 16 settings to play with, then there is at least a slight chance that I actually might finish the job some day…

Some people mention the fact that none of the 16 settings match the original advance curve from the factory, and this is referred to as a problem. But how do we know that Triumph engineers fond the optimal and best setting? (They did make some weird designs, rear axel for instance…) Maybe one of the 16 settings in the 123 dizzys is actually better than the original? (Especially since the petrol are different nowadays).

So, if anyone out there has a 2-litre engine with a 123 dizzy I would appreciate it if you could describe how it performs, and which of the 16 settings you use!

Regards,
Roger.

[Tim Bancroft]

Hi Roger,

Have one for the GT6, by far the best aspect of the 123 is that it has no wear (of course,so would a re-con Lucas dizzy)and that the cap and rotor arm are far superior to Lucas parts.

None of the 16 pre-set maps suit my engine,so I am prob not fully exploiting the distributor, but it seems happy set to pre-set no.1 for normal motoring.

I have one to fit to my Spittie engine and bought one recently for my 2.5, again not fitted yet.

So yes, a fan!

[john2502]

Have got the 123Tune on my MK3 GT6. Have done about 3000miles on it and it hasn't missed a beat and runs very smoothly.

As Tim said, main advantage is the lack of moving parts and availability of good quality cap and rotor arms as opposed to what seems like a bit of a lottery sometimes on the standard replacements.

Can't help with which curve but I'd give the tune version a big thumbs up! yes it is a bit pricey but for me it's worth it as it's a fit and forget item.

Had the mechanical rev counter converted to keep the original look, here's it on the car:

[RogerD]

Thanks Tim & John! Two pleased owners, then there is hope that it should work on my Vitesse too!
Cheers,
Roger.

[Nick Moore]

Roger, something to remember is that their 16 curves are probably derived from 16 different engines, say a Mercedes, coupl'a BMWs, Ford Zephyr... and maybe they even included a Triumph.  But the chances that their 'mechanical' and vacuum advance curves will both suit your engine's camshafts, compression, carburettion and exhaust are low.

Your OCD will be very useful setting up advance curves, specifically dividing the advance between the basic curve and vacuum. Mine was satisfied once I had an engine that pulled cleanly and didn't pink, even in monstrously hot weather. That took a few iterations.

[RogerD]

Hi!

Thanks for the feed-back Nick. The things you write about camshafts etc. is certainly worth thinking about. However, there are a few statements from 123 owners on different forums that indicates that 123 ignition have a few satisfied customers (also Triumph owners). So I agree that there is a risk that none of the 16 settings will work in my Vitesse, but I would not say that there is a low risk that I will find a setting that works...

You do not mention it in your reply, but I assume that you do not have a 123 ignition system in your car, and you have no experience of using them, is that correct?

I can imagine that the hot weather in Australia is a challenge for a Triumph owner, but here on the Aaland Island we have about one foot of snow at the moment, so no risk of over heating here! 🙂

PS. Stupid question I guess, but what is an OCD?

Cheers,
Roger.

[RobPearce]

Quoted from RogerD

PS. Stupid question I guess, but what is an OCD?

Obsessive Compulsive Disorder - anything from inability to leave the house without cleaning the kitchen five times, down to your "perfectionist" tendency of always trying to find an improvement. Which I share 😉

As to the ignition curves... well, I don't have a 1-2-3 so I can't comment on them specifically, but I've been a developer of engine control software for 25 years if that counts...
Most engines are really quite tolerant of ignition advance. This is a good thing, when you consider how unreliable the old mechanical distributors were. I had the mechanical advance completely seize up on a 2L Vitesse and it still ran well enough that an occasional driver might not have noticed anything amiss. Getting the curve absolutely spot on will give a small benefit in fuel economy (and emissions, but that's marginal). Fitting a Herald dizzy to a 1500 Spitfire engine (in a 13/60 - we didn't have the Spitfire dizzy) doesn't cause any obvious issues. So while the 16 curves are probably all "wrong" for your Triumph, half of them are probably close enough to work better than a knackered slightly worn Lucas unit.

[RogerD]

Thanks! 25 years as a developer of engine control software definitely does counts!
I thought OCD was some kind of instrument good to know I’m not the only one in the club with this dysfunction. Luckily I can usually cure it with a beer or two.
My gut feeling is also that at least one or two of these 16 settings should be “good enough” in order to give good performance. At least better performance than I have today with my Lucas 25D. It is not slightly worn anymore, it probably passed that state during the 80’s… But I will definitely keep the old Lucas unit in case I (or future owners) would like to restore it and put it back. Same thing with tachometer, I prefer to only do modifications that are reversible. Thanks a lot for all the information!

[Sheepy]

We fitted one to the renown for the RBRR! it helped improve the engine

the first curve was no good, had a huge flat spot and no power, so dirk changed it and it emproved it no end, still think we will have to fine tune it but it did well for the 2000 or so miles! 🙂

[RogerD]

Fantastic achievement to finish the RBRR in the Renown Shaun! Well done. And if a Renown engine runs with a 123 dizzy, then so should my Vitesse I guess. I’m getting closer and closer to order one here… Anyone else who have one?

[thescrapman]

The 123tune is in the Rimmers Sale at the moment.

That brings the price down for UK purchasers, not sure what the price is for overseas buyers.

Cheers

[FloydP]

I have the 123tune on my mk1 GT6, I'd heard none of the 16 curves was exactly what was needed so I went for the tune version, loaded it up with the standard curve for my engine. The difference between my tired delco and the 123 was night and day. Mines been on about 6 months now and I've still not got round to tweaking the curves but it was such an improvement I might just leave it alone.
Floyd.

[RogerD]

Hi Floyd! It's good news that the 123Tune seems to work so well, there seems to be a lot of supporters. I have definitely decided to buy a 123 dizzy, but I'm still not sure which model to buy. I was hoping to find someone who had sucessfully used one of the 16 settings in the "standard" 123 dizzy. So far I have only heard of one sucess story with the "standard" 123 dizzy, but several regarding the 123Tune. Thanks for your feed-back Floyd!

[Nick Moore]

Hi Roger, I fitted a 123-tune on my Herald 13/60 last month, prompted in part by Rimmers' sale. My cars's been tweaked with a different camshaft, higher compression, twin SUs and headers. In theory a 1296cc engine shouldn't work well with twin 1.5" carbs, but it does! It had a Lucas distributor with supposedly modified advance curve, fitted about fifteen years ago. I fitted the 123-tune on a whim - the car ran OK-ish on the Lucas dizzy but I was sure it could be improved. It was grumpy when cold (even in an Australian summer), occasionally hiccuped when warm, and the fuel consumption was usually mid-twenties. The last tank before the swap was only 19mpg! I thought all that was largely down to worn SU spindles, but I was wrong.

The first time I drove it after the dizzy swap, I knew it was the right choice. Either my Lucas dizzy was worn or just poorly calibrated, but the car now starts easily, pulls well when cold with very little choke, has no light-throttle flutter and afte a bit of fine tuning, doesn't pink. And the last tankful was 35mpg - and that includes a few hours test driving and fine tuning the advance.

As for OCD, it's the tongue-in-cheek excuse every perfectionist uses. In truth, most of us are only obsessive until the next thing needs fixing. Then it's 'good enough is good enough'.

[piman]

Hello Nick,

an earlier poster said that most engines are pretty tolerant of ignition timing which caused me to raise my eyebrows a bit.
It seems your experience reinforced mine and that it makes quite a bit of difference, particularly if you like to use the performance. Off timed engines are flat in my experience.

Alec

[RobPearce]

Quoted from piman

an earlier poster said that most engines are pretty tolerant of ignition timing which caused me to raise my eyebrows a bit.

I said "tolerant", I didn't say "unaffected"  
Sure, if the ignition is way out at low revs you'll definitely notice it, but if the advance curves are a bit off it's much less obvious. Highly tuned engines are often more sensitive than cookers, too.

(Worst I ever drove was when a local (TR) specialist set up my Stag, timing the wrong cylinder to a ding in the pulley instead of the actual mark. Was about 35 degrees retarded. It still ran... just!)

[Nick Jones]

In areas of low revs and or low load you can get away with quite a lot - and it is amazing how much advance can be added to apparently good effect, especially with wilder cams.

However, at high rpms and load, a degree or two can make the difference between a healthy engine and smoking scrap in a second or two......  A friend now has a 1700 crossflow with two holed pistons due to over ambitious timing with a 123 dizzy! One bore looks like it has been aluminium sprayed!

Be careful out there!  Rolling road is the best and safest way to find the best setting for the full load areas.

Nick

[RogerD]

Hi all,
Thanks for all the information! There seems to be several satisfied 123 ignition customers, both using the programmable version and the "standard" version. However, most of the feedback I got was from 123Tune owners, so now I have ordered one (it was expensive! Phew... 😲). I will keep you posted about how it works once I have received it and tried it. I would appreciate it very much if some of you would share the settings you have in the software so that I can get started as quicly as possibe (screen shot from the 123 software would be perfect). I still think the standard 123 would probably work fine also, but this way I have more people to ask, if I have problems with the settings. No I will go and buy some flowers for the wife, and cross my finger that she does not find out what I paid for that shiny thing with a red cap...

[oil_on_the_carpet]

£250?, a bit of a no brainer compared to the cost of an exchange clockwork distributor.

[FloydP]

Hi Roger,
The site I picked up the curve info for mine was this one http://www.teglerizer.com/mgstuff/advance_curves.htm
They have the curves for the lucas and delco distributors, they're quite different and mine is based on the gt6 mk1 delco so whilst I'm sure it would work on yours it might be worth trying the lucas curve that the vitesse originally would of had.
I had trouble with translating the vacuum advance into the table so I borrowed the curve data from a 123 tune on a friends 2.5 saloon, seems to be ok.
Good luck,
Floyd.

[RogerD]

Thanks Floyd! I have just dowloaded and installed the software. I ordered it today, so I guess it will take a week or two for it to reach this remote island. Can't wait to try it!
Cheers,
Roger.

[RogerD]

Hello!
I have ordered (not yet received) a 123/Tune to replace the original Lucas 22D distributor in my 1966 Triumph Vitesse Mk I 2-Litre. The static timing advance for the Lucas 22D should according to the Vitesse manual be set to 13 crankshaft degrees before top dead centre (BTDC).
I would appreciate if someone who already has this dizzy installed could clarify one statement in the 123/Tune manual (Page 4, Mounting the 123/Tune in your car).
Quote: “Bring the engine to the static timing point, at the end of the compression-stroke, for cylinder number 1. Rotate the unit CW until the green LED just lights up”.
Does this mean that the number one piston should be:
a) 13 degrees BTDC during compression stroke when the green LED just come on?
b) At Top Dead Centre during compression stroke when the green LED just come on?
In my mind is should be at TDC (alternative b) since the static advance number differ from engine to engine, and this number is not entered into the software. I can’t understand how the 123 Distributor can know where the piston is (relative TDC) when the green light comes on unless it is “green lighted” at TDC? Or am I wrong? Please advice. Thanks in advance!
Regards,
Roger.

[RogerD]

Hello! I just got an e-mail from the supplier which I think explains this. If I programme the static timing in the software settings, then I can "green light" it at TDC. Hence, first point in software = Zero Rpm and 13 Degrees. I bought the 123/Tune from Leen Apk and I must say that they have provided excellent service so far. I sent an email asking about this, but I did not expect to get an answer within an hour on a sunday afternoon, I thought you guys here on the forum would give me an answer quicker, but the supplier was quicker in this case! (I have no connection with that company).

[Nick Moore]

Yes, green light at TDC. I checked mine yesterday in case the distributor's clamp had slipped, and it was still at TDC. Very easy to check! The Spitfire 123 Tune is a replacement for a Delco dizzy, and my car had a Lucas 25D, so I wanted to be sure that the Lucas clamp was holding a Delco-style dizzy. And it is.

[Sheepy]

Good luck with the investment, I think you need to get her chocolates as well 🙂

I have to agree with Nick (J) fit it with the tune you like, then book a session on a rolling road! Money well spent, I have seen many cars set up really well (as best as they can be) until they get on the RR,
They can put the car through it's paces under varying loads, and see flat spots or underfueling/over fuelling, varying timing, that you would not otherwise see doing a normal tune.