Nick Jones Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I removed the the PI gearbox today to investigate the slipping clutch. Fairly trouble free job apart from snapping all three of the manifold studs and the discovery of some random butchery to the tunnel by the gearlever hole (PO with fat fingers couldn't reach the OD switch by the look of it) that will need repairing.It has a Laycock clutch and the friction plate is worn down to the rivets. The pressure plate friction surface and fingers are in pretty fair shape though. This leads to the first set of choices:- I have an unused friction plate from a Vitesse clutch (my Vitesse doesn't use Triumph friction plates any more). It's not a Laycock one though - not sure what it is. In my bad old bodging days I'd have stuck that in it and hoped for the best..... bad idea?- Paddocks are offering Borg and Beck 3 piece kits for £ 65 - seems like a good price, but I've heard that they don't give very good results in the saloons - any experiences/opinions?- There's a place quite local that rebuilds clutches - probably about £ 80 he reckoned although he hasn't seen it yet.- Don't think the Laycock ones are available now?The actuating linkage isn't completely shot but does have some issues. The cross shaft bushes need renewing and there is lost motion between the cross-shaft and fork. The fork and release bearing carrier look pretty good. The slave cylinder is weeping and looks about 40 years old.Second set of choices- Obviously this lot can be reconditioned reasonably easily - although the parts to do it properly will add up.- Also the possibility of converting to a concentric slave. I know kits exist for this but they are $$$$! The cylinders themselves are used on various Saabs and Mondeos and are actually very reasonable - doesn't look to hard to make an adaptor......The flywheel looks to be standard and is good condition. It's huge and heavy of course. I have a spare Vitesse one........ which would require a different release bearing carrier (from?) and possibly a different spigot bearing. Is it worth it?Gearbox needs to come apart too. VERY hard to get second when cold (baulk, baulk, baulk crunch!), third not much better and some threating noises in 1st and 2nd when booted.Also noted rather alot of crank endfloat - not enough to indicate the thrusts have dropped out but enough to suggest that they might soon! Haven't put the DTI on it yet but I don't need one to tell me it's well over book! Looks like the sump needs to come off as well..... oh, deep joy :(One more not quite random question: Presumably originally the PI pressure plate had a stronger spring than the others - hence the need for a larger slave cylinder? Doesn't seem to be any differentiation in the part Nos these days?CheersNick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Land rover slave fits straight on Nick and very cheap, I think I paid about £5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikew Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Some of the replacement clutch friction plates don't have the original number of rivets and fail prematurely - so watch out for this - personally I'd get new material put on the old plate if it and the springs are good.i have fitted tilton release to my stag and its good - very smooth and not prone to mechanical wear.inspect the fork pins for "squarenesss" and the bearing carrier for wear marks where the pins fit. both give notchy clutchesmike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sorbington Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I think you have to make your own extended bearing carrier if using the Vitesse flywheel?It'd probably be easier to get your heavy flywheel machined, 30 quid or so, although to be honest I'm not really sure it makes a massive (ie. noticeable) difference.Make sure the ring gear is secure on the saloon flywheel, they have a habit of shifting.Must not mention auto conversions.......... :X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 15, 2011 Author Share Posted January 15, 2011 sorbs wrote:Must not mention auto conversions.......... :XNo..... NOT happening :)Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TedTaylor Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 If replacing the clutch plate ALWAYS replace the cover and release bearing at the same time - there is a reason they are usually sold as 'clutch kits' ....... and it is not just to make you buy more bits. The clutch cover springs (fingers) will get tired from use as the clutch is operated (so possibly shortening the life of the new clutch plate) and the release bearing wears (carbon face or bearings depending upon type). After all if the plate has had enough use to wear it out then the cover and release bearing have had a similar 'hard' time. And to be on the safe side change the pinion bush/bearing (fitted in the flywheel) as well.If you don't want to take the whole lot apart again before the next plate wears out do the job once and do it properly. Nothing more infuriating than changing the plate then finding shortly after that cover/thrust/bearing also needs to be done and you have to strip the whole lot out again.I did the 'plate only' change just once back in the mid '60s and had the clutch slip again within 1000 miles because of the tired cover ...... and then had the thrust bearing fail (a horrible squeal) after a similar time on another change a few years later. Once caught twice shy :-/ Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkDeTriomphe Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Nick_Jones wrote:One more not quite random question: Presumably originally the PI pressure plate had a stronger spring than the others - hence the need for a larger slave cylinder? Doesn't seem to be any differentiation in the part Nos these days?CheersNickI have heard it said (mr Witor many years ago) that the fingers are thicker on the 2500 than 2000 range - and that the Vitesse/GT6 are even thinner. That local re-conditioner you mentioned claimed not to know anything about this, but when I went through hist stock of covers last year, there were certainly some that were thicker than others. It is also worth noting that they do not replace the diaphragm (spring) when reconditioning the cover - not economical apparently as they need to order in the 1000s. Therefore the fingers are just machined to remove any grooves from the thrust bearing. This is a bit worrying - as Ted says, I assume the springs do get tired.Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard B Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 Nick_Jones wrote:and there is lost motion between the cross-shaft and fork. Sounds like the taper pin is broken. Do change it.Well worth having the flywheel lightened. I had mine done for £40. The MkII 2.5 PI engine is crippled by a heavy flywheel (for caravaners). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyb Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Richard_B wrote:Sounds like the taper pin is broken. Do change it.Well worth having the flywheel lightened. I had mine done for £40. The MkII 2.5 PI engine is crippled by a heavy flywheel (for caravaners).Change it even if it looks ok - they have a tendancy to crack. Can second the suggestion about lightening flywheel too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piman Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Hello Nick, I agre with the above regarding the taper pin and lightening the flywheel (helps the engine pick up). I would add that strengthened pins are available but more important is the fit of the pin. It must locate snugly in the cross shaft taper. Occasionally the head of the pin bottoms on the fork, if so relieve the head as it will fail if that is not done. Personally, I don't like the idea of an extra roll pin or nut and bolt through the assembly as a back up. If the taper pin is not solid, a parallel pin or bolt will rock and eventually fail as well.If the cover fingers are a different thickness, it suggests that the whole diaphragm also varies in thickness and therefore clamping load?Alec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thescrapman Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 when you fit new cross shaft bushes, get the wider ones from chris witor, and then push the old ones inwars slghtly and leave them there, bit of extra.always fit a new crossshaft pin. if it has snapped already, good luck you may need it!CheersColin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard B Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 piman wrote:If the cover fingers are a different thickness, it suggests that the whole diaphragm also varies in thickness and therefore clamping load?yup, 2000 is a lighter clutch than 2.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRTOM2498 Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Hi Nick,I don't have much experience with PI clutches, but I do on my TR6. Some years ago, perhaps 5-6, Borg and Beck released some TR5/6 clutches (which I had), and the friction plate had something like 3 rivets holding it together, and consequently, I snapped it after only a few months. I understand they have now corrected this problem.I now use a NOS Laycock clutch, 3 piece, this takes all the abuse I give it (track days etc), without any problems.I may know someone who has a genuine clutch kit for your PI if interested.Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Richard_B wrote:Sounds like the taper pin is broken. Do change it.Oh, prophet of doom - I wish you were wrong...... but of course you are not :( cross-shaft, taper pin and fork all fubar :'(Concentric clutch slave now looking distinctly likely...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Gearbox now in bits.....Actually all looks pretty good, certainly nothing that new bearings and synchro-rings won't fix. Are the new synchro rings any good or are they suspect like the small box ones?Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thescrapman Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Someone appears to have sawn the end off your cross shaft, that would appear to be your problem... :-/As you have discovered that is the only way to get it off.I have had success once tapping away constantly to dislodge the broken off end of teh taper pin.persistence paid off.I may be able to assist you with a cross shaft it you go back to that method, or I will watch intently if you decide to work out a cheaper way to do a concentric clutch.CheersColin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 thescrapman wrote:Someone appears to have sawn the end off your cross shaft, that would appear to be your problem... :-/As you have discovered that is the only way to get it off.Yeah..... that was me, couldn't see any alternative. Cross-shaft was fairly chewed where it ran on the bushes, so not as grieved as I might have been. Cross about the fork though - that was cracked already. I guess it was lucky the whole lot didn't let go completely somewhere inconvenient. Whole thing looks designed to fail IMO - going to investigate the concentric route seeing as I've got a fairly big parts bill now anyway..... this car is getting irritating now - certainly irritating my wallet!Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard B Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Nick_Jones wrote:Whole thing looks designed to fail IMO - I think of it as agricultural as in Massey Fergusson, very 1930's engineering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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