rear spring choices

[julesdingle]

This single rear spring malarkey is new to me having had sensible arrangements in other cars

So the old spring is out and perfectly restorable  

or Canleys upgrade for £250 - with a thicker roll bar

are there other alternatives?

a lowering block is a cheaper option but I don't want to muck around too much with the ride height as I live on a farm in Wales- fabulous country roads but there has been the odd noise of grounding out if I hit some of rough bits of road.

and I have experienced the little twitch too many times with the need to brake on down hill bends so something needs to be done.

what do you recommend?

for a safe ride money is no object! [within reason]

[JohnD]

The problem is the original "Swing axle" arrangement that Triumph used, until they went Rotoflex and then Swing Spring.
And the Swing axle problem is that the wheel is rigidly attached to the end of the half shaft.
Vigorous cornering will cause the body to lift, so that the wheel on the outside (and inside but that doesn't matter) is in positive camber.   This exaggerates further body lift, and the feedback pushes the wheel down and under the car - "jack-up", losing adhesion on the way.

The importance in real life road motoring was exaggerated by the Press at the time, and by rivals ever since, but except in extreme use, competition and as you say, braking on bends (TUT!  NEVER brake on bends!! Do it befoe you get there! Slow in=fast out! ) it doesn't happen.

When jack-up happens it's because the wheel gets into droop and positive camber, which is why the spacer works - the wheel starts off in more negative so has further to go to get positive.  The next solution is a stiffer spring, so less likely to droop and go positive, which I suppose is the Canley solution.     But the best solution is to go swing spring, that allows less body roll and lift,  if possible with the longer half shafts that induce more negative as well.  Together, they were an inspired and clever solution by Triumph to a well-known design fault of the swing axle, the more so as they required almost no modification to the existing car's parts and fittings
Another is the Camber Compensator, but that reduces ground clearance, so maybe you won't want to look at that.

Is yours a Spitfire?  Any of the above will work on GT6s/Vitesses as well.

JOhn

[garyf]

The Canley's Herald Swingspring conversion with the thicker Antiroll bar is a popular modificatons.

Another option is to obtain a Courier Spring (Herald Van Type) this is also supposed to be a positive improvement that reduces camber changes and roll, with thicker/stiffer leaves and a flatter profile.

Both Canley Classics and Bill at Rarebits4Classics have had these Courier spring remanufactured in the past, but I'm not sure of the current availability :-/

If you do decide to get a new spring be carefull where you purchase from, some of the springs are manufactured in India/China and are made of CHEESE!! ;D

The Canley spring are Uk manufactured and better quality (So I have been informed?)

Regards

Gary  

[Slimboyfat]

garyf wrote:

.

Both Canley Classics and Bill at Rarebits4Classics have had these Courier spring remanufactured in the past, but I'm not sure of the current availability :-/

  

One and the same thing, but unfortunately now all gone bar one, and we have no plans to do anymore (all to do with MOQ's, and very VERY slow sales).

[mpbarrett]

JohnD wrote:

The problem is the original "Swing axle" arrangement that Triumph used, until they went Rotoflex and then Swing Spring.
And the Swing axle problem is that the wheel is rigidly attached to the end of the half shaft.
Vigorous cornering will cause the body to lift, so that the wheel on the outside (and inside but that doesn't matter) is in positive camber.   This exaggerates further body lift, and the feedback pushes the wheel down and under the car - "jack-up", losing adhesion on the way.

The importance in real life road motoring was exaggerated by the Press at the time, and by rivals ever since, but except in extreme use, competition and as you say, braking on bends (TUT!  NEVER brake on bends!! Do it befoe you get there! Slow in=fast out! ) it doesn't happen.
......

Always worth deliberately making the rear wheel do this at least once so you know what to expect if happens by mistake. It can all go pear shaped very quickly....

mike

[julesdingle]

JohnD wrote:

The importance in real life road motoring was exaggerated by the Press at the time, and by rivals ever since, but except in extreme use, competition and as you say, braking on bends (TUT!  NEVER brake on bends!! Do it befoe you get there! Slow in=fast out! ) it doesn't happen.

...

Is yours a Spitfire?  Any of the above will work on GT6s/Vitesses as well.

JOhn

Never brake on bends- good advice - however the joys of Welsh hill roads and lanes and being in a  convertible 13/60 which is only 4 ft wide is hammering it around bends and those exist on the up hill and down- which is frequent place to meet tractors, 4x4s, and
and those in their armoured personal carriers - so there is quite a lot of braking on bends going down hill.

The swing spring mod from Canleys is affordable so I might as well go for that- unless anyone thinks spending £30 on 1/2" plate is as good.

[Steve P]

I had an old TriumphTune decambered spring on my Vitesse,it was getting a bit saggy so i thought i would try the Courier version from one of the above suppliers.It made the car sit far too high and induced hideous positive camber and awful handling.

I could have farted around with lowering blocks but went back to the TT spring instead.
S

[Paudman]

10026 wrote:

Never brake on bends- good advice - however the joys of Welsh hill roads and lanes and being in a  convertible 13/60 which is only 4 ft wide is hammering it around bends and those exist on the up hill and down- which is frequent place to meet tractors, 4x4s, and
and those in their armoured personal carriers - so there is quite a lot of braking on bends going down hill.

So: don’t brake on bends! Slow down in advance and accelerate through the bend, let the car pull you round the corner. That way you’re in control no matter what you meet. If you’re braking in the middle of bends - even downhill - it’s poor technique, and expecting mods to the car to compensate is unfair on the poor car… I’m no expert myself so not speaking from any lofty position, but practicing so that you accelerate through or out of the bend, having slowed down well in advance, is something I learned on more modern cars when taking advanced driving tests more than a few years ago...

[thescrapman]

I am not saying you are guilty of not driving the car correctly (Ok I am :-) ) but modern "safe" FWD cars are built with lift-off understeer as a standard, as it is something most people can recover from, you are inducing lift-off oversteer, much more fun, but usually results in tears and a view of where you just came from, or a nice view of the sky from the ditch.

As Mike suggests, get a bit of practise in of what it feels like so you know what to do if it happens when you don't expect it. Over inflate the rear tyres helps as well.

If I have been driving the modern for too long, I forget how to drive the Triumph. 2000 miles in a weekend soon sorts that out!

Cheers

Colin

[JohnD]

Jules,
I hope you get the message.  Your driving practices are bringing you and others into danger, and Triumphs into disrepute, so learn to drive properly, with anticipation and observation, and GET YOUR PRACTICE ON TRACK!   There is absolutely no place for 'performance' driving on public roads these days.  UK roads, even in the Welsh countryside, are far, far too crowded.

The antics of Top Gear make it seem possible to take a road car to the limit on the public road.  What they don't tell or show you is the observer at each end with a radio.  The observer is looking at the road leading to the 'performance' stretch where the cameras are, so that they can tell La Clarkson at the opposite end when he has time to thrash the Ghastlymobile along with no need to worry about oncomers.  

The only place you can find that privilege is on track, and track days are so easy to find these days, often with instruction available at reasonable cost.   I had 20 minutes with an instructor at Caldwell not so long ago for about £30, quite long enough to learn enough about trail braking to go off and practice for myself.     If you're braking in corners, then a similar 20 minutes would show you why not!

John

[Pete Lewis]

Having driven quite hard when I had the Vit6 have never tucked under with normal spirited  tearing around,
to rid the orig.  silly neg camber fitted a decambered  TT spring wich sagged
very quickly and went to the tip

replaced with a canley swinger kit, but again the ride was disfuctional,
and the std shockers bottomed out , so removed the bump rings , to get some ride travel
Even had some short gaz made to suit the ride height, but gave up as with a saloon
Body roll on roundabouts was awfull
we were usually 4 up and a boot full.

last fitted one of bills  Courier units with 1"drop plate, to correct to 0 camber

brilliant......   what you must do , what ever spring you have ,is check the rear wheel toe, with
150 lbs on each seat   as per the manual.
pete
then no bump or pot hole bunny hops from the back end

kept the thick arb......like on rails

[garyf]

Pete

I knew someone had fitted the Courier spring and was happy :)

That seems to be the way to go then, a Courier Rear Spring with a 1" lowering block and the thicker Spitfire MkIV Antiroll Bar up front.

This shouldn't cost a fortune?

I might even do this to my Mk2 Vitesse when those pesky Rotoflex couplings start playing up!! ;D

[Slimboyfat]

garyf wrote:

Pete

I knew someone had fitted the Courier spring and was happy :)

That seems to be the way to go then, a Courier Rear Spring with a 1" lowering block and the thicker Spitfire MkIV Antiroll Bar up front.

This shouldn't cost a fortune?
;D

Please note what I said about Courier spring availabilty earlier in this thread.

[Tim Bancroft]

Small chassis Triumph driving is an education that leads to one becoming nice and smooth with all inputs into the car's controls: steering, throttle, brake and clutch actuation.

My first car was a Vitesse and I feel was a valuable education for me, from that I have become a smooth driver.

[Elma fud]

A bit unfair lambasting his driving style and reading his first post he seams to have a twitchiness problem which l would have put down to a brake problem or worn bushes causing the rear wheels to steer.

People do like to think their is an easy 'bolting on something' when there could be an issue with other components.

[garyf]

Slimboyfat wrote:

Please note what I said about Courier spring availabilty earlier in this thread.

Just the one left then?

[Pete Lewis]

Seeing as I s1eem to have tried the 3 versions of whats out there to meddle with, its probably best to leave it as std spring  and maybe a lowering block,  try it first as a cheapy..
whilst the courier unit realy stiffens up the desire to tuck  under which I never managed to replecate
its fair to say i ran well loaded most of the time, unladen the ride can be robust and
more twiddling with spax adjustables ,, again ,, lots of messing with setting to achieve some
workable  bump and rebound  that suited my aged backside

You cannot replace a  programmed experimental engineering dept. With a shed , a vice and afile

Good fun to try but results are not always for the better

pete

[Mark Hammond]

I used my Herald for the first time in a couple of months today and almost got caught out.  A combination of a wet road, Surrey's appalling lack of road maintenance and me being used to a fast, modern cocoon over-burdened with safety gadgets had allowed me to forget how twitchy these cars can be in the wrong conditions.  I soon readjusted though....

M.

[julesdingle]

Fitting the Canleys spring conversion is [as i understand it] what Triumph did to fix the problem- as opposed to some of the other adjustments which seem to come with mixed opinion- and certainly simply insuring all the bushes, bolts, and brakes are tip top [which will happen in the rebuild] is essential to get it back to factory spec so I know at least what it is supposed to feel like. In an ideal world I would rebuild the spring and try that first and then the swing spring [which i will do on my next herald! i really have fallen in love with them]

I am not mucking about with poly bushes- on the landrovers I have had I tried switching once from factory rubber to very expensive poly to improve handling and it was a waste and they wore out. In an ideal world i would be able to compare a 'new' Herald to mine just to get the feel. although it is nearly this that got me into Heralds

A young friend got into classics but complained the handling of his Herald was  nothing like his last newish car- and it was really bad- the steering rack bushes and clamps were actually loose, so new bushes and tight nuts and completely new drive- but it did me a chance to admire the engineering of the Herald.

Driving style........ I would not want to bring any shame on the Triumph community with boy racer goings on- and as for braking on bends going down hill I am not even getting past 30 mph on the little country lanes around me- but being 8 inches off the ground feels fun when compared to the 4x4- and also my neighbours hammer their APCs around the corners although you can see over the hedges  in a 4x4

I should have put a smillie face with my comments about braking down hill on bends! But I will certainly take up the offer of a few 1000 miles driving - as soon as the car is fixed

thanks everyone for the input.

[Nick Moore]

One thing we've found over the last few years is that rubber bushes ain't what they used to be. The formulation has changed and they disintegrate very quickly. Original rubber bushes often lasted decades when they weren't subject to oil contamination. As a result, most restorers fit polybushes instead. You can get urethane with the same hardness as the original rubber, and preserve the handling characteristics.

[julesdingle]

The rear suspension is now cleaned, blasted [not spring], de rusted, and dismantled on my work bench- and I'm amazed at what passes MOTs, the n/s shock goes in with squeaks, grinds and jerks and doesn't return, the  o/f side does but on this side the bush is perished- haven't pushed out all the bushes yet [waiting for the new year and a bench press xmas present] but they look original.

As this is my pet car I'm going to blow the cash on the swing spring [um.. xmas late gift to me!] and overhaul the old spring for my next Herald [like dogs if you have one you might as well have um..4, at least a spare, a saloon perhaps for winter].

[herald948]

Whatever happened to having a good spring "de-arched"?

[WhiteV]

Hi --- My set up Vitesse 2L Mk 1    Spax adjustables all round  set up reasonably stiff  ( Cant remember actual settings )  175/70 x 13 on 5.5J wheels  Standard rear spring from Canley's.   Uprated and lower front springs from TSSC  All fitted years ago and don't see no reason to change. Car copes well with twisted bits here in Devon. Power up to a corner, quick ease off the power with a dip of the brakes if necessary whilst in a straight line  and power back on. Uprated front stops the car pitching forward  which  removes a certain amount of undesired weight transfer. Also always carry a heavy tool bag or something in the boot. Had a flipped over 2nd or 3rd leaf on a previously fitted spring, certainly was a good trick, but proved a bit too low if carry passengers  or towing. .... I still have that spring somewhere?   Friends have noted how well the car handles and rides.  Driving a Triumph is so rewarding as the interest is always in the next bend  and how you approach it. You don't have to be a maniac, that's when your asking for trouble, like in any car old or new. Trust this helps.
A Merry Christmas to you all.

[WhiteV]

Hi - Here are photos of the flipped over leaf in previous post

[Pete Lewis]

What ever you fit or do make sure you set the rear toe as per the workshop manual
add the 150lbs to each seat to get the static ride height and then check the toe

getting this right stops all the twitch and bunny hops on pot holes


pete