Herald Vitesse rear spring

[davidcourier]

Hi,

I've just changed the restored and upgraded front suspension from the GT6 to the Herald Coupe. Next is the stage 3 engine with triple dellorto's when that's in place it's time to get the radiator in with is gonne be a hassle with a 1200 bonnet, but it's been done before.

question one:

So my question is if the GT6 spring (rotoflex suspension which I'm gonne change to CV shafts) is the right one?
What are the differences between rotoflex and non rotoflex springs? are the longer stronger etc...And what's the difference between a vitesse rotoflex spring and and GT6 one? I'm running the Coupe with twin tanks.

question two:
I'm gonne put theGT6 engine with overdrive and diff in the Herald coupe, will the GT6 prop fit or is there a difference in length between the GT6 and Vitesse?

Thanks,

David

will post some photo's later

[Nick Jones]

You need to use a rotoflex spring with the roto rear as they are different lengths.  You would probably be better using a Vitesse one as it will be stronger than the the GT6 one and more suitable for the extra weight of the Herald, espcially if you want to carry passengers, luggage and stuff.....

The GT6 prop will be too short I'm afraid.  If using standard gearbox you need the matching Vitesse propshaft.  OD (D-type) and non-OD should be easy enough to come by.  OD J-type a little trickier possibly depending on how the gearbox has been built (gearbox can be same length as D type OD one or 1" longer, needing a 1" shorter propshaft).  

See http://www.canleyclassics.com/infodatabase.asp?article=propshafts

Cheers

Nick

[Clive]

As to rotoflex stuff, the most is the same between vit and GT6, however as Nick ponts out the vitesse spring is stronger, so use that maybe with a lowering block if needed. Also the tie rods are a different length, you again need the longer vitesse ones and the correct rear outriggers as the mounting holes are in a different place to non-roto cars. My be possible to redrill and reinforce the outrigger, but I would be inclined to NOT use the existing mountings as it could badly affect the suspension geometry. No idea how, it is probably complicated, but it was done for a reason!
With cv shafts you will be able to use the std shock monuts, that will make life easier :)

It may be worth getting the engine further back than standard if possible, to improve the handling and give a bit more space for the radiator. Not sure of bulkhead implications with the dellorto's though :-/

Clive

[Jonny-Jimbo]

Just a side thought; as the tie-rods are longer on the Vitesse, on both Rotoflex and swing-spring cars, does that mean you're more likely to get tuck-under due to the longer swing angle available from a longer tie-rod?

[CharlieB]

No the tie rod length does not effect whether or not you get tuck under, only the swing axle length (& angle & spring rate & .....)
Obviously rotoflex cars don't suffer from tuck under.

[JohnD]

All,

As there have been several enquiries about rear springs recently, I will append a chart that John Thomason published in the Courier, many years ago.   I have added some data that I acquired, to fill some of the gaps that are still there.  If anyone can fill those, please let me know.

I'll post it as an image, as the register of tables always goes to pot when I post them on MsBs.

[Nick Jones]

Hmm, interesting - seems they are all very similar lengths.  And Mk2 Vitesse is all soft too......

Thanks for posting that John!

Nick

[rotoflex]

The chart's listing for GT6 has only two divisions:  Mk1 and Mk2/3.  Mk2/3 apparently refers to the rotoflex spring.  The later GT6 Mk3 had the swing-spring suspension and a different rear spring.

[Nick Moore]

I've often wondered what the rate is for Canley's swing spring conversion for Heralds. Put it this way, I have 450lb springs at the front, and the rear feels harder!

[Pete Lewis]

I had hard ride at the back with a swinger on the vit6 caused lower ride ht and was  riding on the shocker bump stops so took 2 of the 3 out to get some travel but have now dumped the swinger for a courier unit 1" spacer and pair of spax,  result  ...  no roll   Peter

[davidcourier]

Some pictures of my rally Herald, it now has GT6 suspension and brakes up front, stiffer springs, polly bushes, stiffer stabi etc...
Also tandem brakes and twin tanks...fitting the doors after the cage was fitted took some drastic methods with sciccor jacks and large pieces of wood...but it worked out fine and the car's shutlines are perfect now...the cage makes a huge difference.
the cars feels more solid and safe.

[davidcourier]

This weekend the stage 3,  triple dellorto sweet 6 cylinder will go in..together with the overdrive box

[davidcourier]

These seats are made in Italy and can be made up in any colour or combination leather, corduroy etc...

The fit perfectly and give great support.

[davidcourier]

The engine is in!
Everything seems to fit, just have to cut out a part of the propshafttunnel because the o/d box is a bit longer. After bolting down the engine and gearbox down to the chassis, it's time to fit all the blanking plugs in the block get an exhaust on and work out some linkage system for the dellorto's....and loads of other things like a radiator heater hoses etc, etc, etc...oops and a put the rear suspension on..ahhhh!

Why does a 6 cyinder in a Herald looks like a race engine....and looks  standard in a Vitesse...

[Nick Jones]

Sweet!

What is that tandem master cyl from?  Looks like you have got it on without chopping the bulkhead too - is that a LHD priveledge?

Nick

[davidcourier]

It's a Spitfire one, and I had to do some chopping to get it in, no LHD priviledge.
Just cut out as much as was needed, so it looks pretty neat.

I have looked as several options, but the only one that would fit was a Healey tandem cylinder (which is also a conversion), but this involved putting two separate resevoirs onthe bulkhead and the cylinder itself was terribly expensive.

[davidcourier]

The rear suspension is of the car, time to fit the GT6 one.
The CV Conversion came in and also the longer track rods with brackets (vitesse) and vitesse rear rotoflex spring

So 4 questions:

- What would be a good length to start with for the track rods?

- Are the track-rod brackets on the chassis in the same place as the herald ones, if not not where should I drill new holes?

- Are the brackets for the lower wishbone on a vitesse in the same place as the GT6 ones?
On the GT6 there seems to be 7.3 cm between the bracket and the bridge in which the rear of the diff is bolted.

- I remember reading somewehere that the original setup for the shock absorbers can be used with a CV conversion...is this true or should I use the conversion kit with shorter dampers and chassis brackets

[Richard B]

davidcourier wrote:

- What would be a good length to start with for the track rods?

Should give 1/16'' Toe-in.

davidcourier wrote:

- Are the track-rod brackets on the chassis in the same place as the herald ones, if not not where should I drill new holes?

I think they are different on a Vitesse, they are are on a GT6. Try to find someone who has an unused outrigger, as some have two sets of holes so as to fit MkI & MkII. Rimmers list the Vit MkII one for the Herald so they have probably commonised it. Canleys & Paddocks list different part numbers.

Bear in mind the outrigger has strengthener tubes inside to stop the box section being crushed.

davidcourier wrote:

- Are the brackets for the lower wishbone on a vitesse in the same place as the GT6 ones?
On the GT6 there seems to be 7.3 cm between the bracket and the bridge in which the rear of the diff is bolted.

Should be same place relative to diff mounts

davidcourier wrote:

- I remember reading somewehere that the original setup for the shock absorbers can be used with a CV conversion...is this true or should I use the conversion kit with shorter dampers and chassis brackets

Should fit, the dougnut causes the clearance problem.

[Nick Jones]

^^ What he said.  ^^

I can measure my car (Vit mk2), which has original rear outriggers, if you get stuck .  You'll also have some brake pipe re-routing to do and note that the rotoflex rear has different handbrake cable guides mounted on the tub rather than the chassis. With the CV shafts you may find that the existing arrangement can be connected (fouls on roto couplings when fitted) but I think you'll find the handbrake adjustment varies wildly with suspension position...... I have a Mk2 chassis and mk 1 tub so I know these things  :(

Nick

[davidcourier]

Nick_Jones wrote:

^^ What he said.  ^^

I can measure my car (Vit mk2), which has original rear outriggers

Nick

Nick,

That would be great if you can measure it on your car, can you also measure the track rods?

Cheers,

David

[Nick Jones]

See attached pic.  Dimensions should be treated with a degree of caution as for various reasons I can't lift the car just now and it's too low to get under.  Holes appear to be 12mm (1/2") from the edges (top and bottom) of the outrigger.

I can't measure the whole tie rod length with the wheel on, but the distance between the ends of the two tube sections is 67mm. (jam nuts included within that 67mm).  No reason why this will also be correct on yours - toe must be set once assembled and at normal running height.

Note that roto chassis brackets are different - can't see any in your pic......  Note also that there are anti-crush tubes in the outrigger.

Hope this helps

Nick

[Nick Jones]

Nick_Jones wrote:

See attached pic.  Dimensions should be treated with a degree of caution as for various reasons I can't lift the car just now and it's too low to get under.  Holes appear to be 12mm (1/2") from the edges (top and bottom) of the outrigger.

I can't measure the whole tie rod length with the wheel on, but the distance between the ends of the two tube sections is 67mm. (jam nuts included within that 67mm).  No reason why this will also be correct on yours - toe must be set once assembled and at normal running height.

Note that roto chassis brackets are different - can't see any in your pic......  Note also that there are anti-crush tubes in the outrigger.

Hope this helps

Nick

I'll post the pic this time.... :B

[davidcourier]

Thanks, just fantastic!
What would we do without the internet and people that are willling to post on this forum.

It's minus 15 degrees celsius in my garage....ahhh way to cold to work on the herald.

[Flemming]

davidcourier wrote:

Some pictures of my rally Herald, it now has GT6 suspension and brakes up front, stiffer springs, polly bushes, stiffer stabi etc...
Also tandem brakes and twin tanks...fitting the doors after the cage was fitted took some drastic methods with sciccor jacks and large pieces of wood...but it worked out fine and the car's shutlines are perfect now...the cage makes a huge difference.
the cars feels more solid and safe.

hi David

what's the purpose of "tandem brakes"?

regards Flemming

[Richard B]

Dual circuit brake system. If one circuit fails you still have the other half a braking system.  ??)