Horn problem – again ….

[Einar]

For me this is a never ending story: problems to get the horn to work properly. There was a thread a couple of weeks ago: http://club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum10/Blah.pl?m-1392992859/s-new/#num3 . I’ve followed the advices described by Gary. I did assume it is an earthing issue, however I’m not able to sort it out (my electrical skill are limited :B).

The situation is now:
•     The horns themselves works  :P
•     I measure 12V across the steering column and horn pencil, see pic. – then I conclude the earthing is OK. Is this actually true?
•     Then I connect a wire between the steering column and horn pencil. I thought the horns should be working with this wire …. or maybe not…!? There is just a “click” in the horns – or frankly a bit more than a click, it sound like “almost working” – but then dead. There is also a tiny spark just when the wire is connected ……

I’m I doing anything that makes sense to sort out the problem, or…..!??

I’m about to “conclude” that it may be the Slip Ring/Circular Horn Pencil connection ring… The steering wheel is a periodic accessory one “Formula” and the ring assembly and boss are not equal to the original setup. It looks like I have to disassemble the entire steering column to get access to the slip ring. I hope to avoid this and would like to sort out the specific reason before doing this ….

I did all the “earthing fault diagnosis” 4-5 years ago and got the horn to work very well. However, during these years it has gone from working good, then bad to worse - worked only now-and-then until it get pretty silent last year.

Does anyone have some advises and suggestions of how to continue…………

Thanks  :)

[Deleted User]

I've had some problems with the horn on my car as well. Eventually, I tracked the problem down to a poor earth and a slightly 'sticky' operation of the horn button inside the Moto-Lita steering wheel hub. The first problem was resolved by running an earth wire from the horn mount back to a point where a clean metal-on-mtal contact could be made, and a small amount of lubricant fixed the second problem.

[Einar]

Thanks, I’ve been thinking something like that regarding earthing. However as I measure 12V across the steering column and horn pencil I thought the earthing was OK….. See pic – it was not added in the original post…..

[Deleted User]

Einar wrote:

Thanks, I’ve been thinking something like that regarding earthing. However as I measure 12V across the steering column and horn pencil I thought the earthing was OK….. See pic – it was not added in the original post…..

The earthing problem on my car was different, it was at the horn end. The mounting bracket/bolt/mounting position did not provide an adequate earth loop. However, the introduction of an extra wire, to pick up a more reliable earth elsewhere, saw the problem solved.

[junkuser]

The steering wheel nut does not appear to be on many threads.

I'm not referring to horn problems, just safety.

[ferny]

Undo the nut a little, bang the back of the wheel so it's loose, remove the nut, pull the wheel off. You'll see your slip ring. I'm not sure why they're clicking if you say you're getting a connection to them? But you give the impression you're not? I have an aluminium steering wheel boss and it needs to be cleaned of its oxidisation before each MOT to work. I also had to make my own pencil.

junkuser wrote:

The steering wheel nut does not appear to be on many threads.

I'm not referring to horn problems, just safety.

Agreed.

[Scimher]

...The 'horn pencils' do not seem to be of particularly good quality these days & they can cause problems......

[heraldcoupe]

Einar wrote:

Thanks, I’ve been thinking something like that regarding earthing. However as I measure 12V across the steering column and horn pencil I thought the earthing was OK….. See pic – it was not added in the original post…..

If you're seeing 12V between the horn pencil and the column, what voltage are you reading between the battery positive and ground? I would expect something higher than 12V from a charged battery, if that's the case then there is a voltage drop, probably in the ground side of the circuit, ie the steering column.

More meaningful than checking the voltage, what resisitance are you reading between the end of the column and the battery's ground terminal? The reading should be negligible if the column is properly grounded,

Cheers,
Bill.

[nang]

About to say but Bill beat me to it , is the earth strap from top flange of flexi coupling to bottom one there ?
Tony.  

[Einar]

Thanks for the replies  :) All earth straps on the bottom of the column are in place and I will check the resistance. There is no slip ring just behind the steering wheel – only “solid steel” ……. I assume the ring may be behind “that steel”..!?? Finally, yes the nut is loose as I’ve dismantled the steering wheel for getting access to the slip ring (that wasn’t there  :-/) – and the nut has not been fitted properly. I need to sort out the problem further and will continue the coming week-end as I’m busy all week long. I may come back with additional posts  :P

[garyf]

Are you sure the Horns do actually work?

One of mine started clicking on the Vitesse and I had to turn the adjustment screw slightly to make it work?

It may be worth making up a lead and connecting the Earth Terminal on each Horn to a good earth or even to the Battery Earth?

A quick touch of the earth cable on a good earth and if the horn sounds you know its a problem with the Earth Return up the column somewhere?

I've seen the soldered connection come adrift on the back of the circular earthing ring, so check this too.

Regards

Gary

[Einar]

garyf wrote:

Are you sure the Horns do actually work?

One of mine started clicking on the Vitesse and I had to turn the adjustment screw slightly to make it work?

It may be worth making up a lead and connecting the Earth Terminal on each Horn to a good earth or even to the Battery Earth?

A quick touch of the earth cable on a good earth and if the horn sounds you know its a problem with the Earth Return up the column somewhere?

I've seen the soldered connection come adrift on the back of the circular earthing ring, so check this too.

Regards

Gary

Did what you suggest. A quick touch of the earth cable on a good earth: The horn sounds load and clear  :)

[Einar]

heraldcoupe wrote:

If you're seeing 12V between the horn pencil and the column, what voltage are you reading between the battery positive and ground? I would expect something higher than 12V from a charged battery, if that's the case then there is a voltage drop, probably in the ground side of the circuit, ie the steering column.

More meaningful than checking the voltage, what resisitance are you reading between the end of the column and the battery's ground terminal? The reading should be negligible if the column is properly grounded,

Cheers,
Bill.

Reading between the battery positive and ground: 12.44 V
Reading between the horn pencil and the column: 12.34 V
Resistance between the end of the column and the battery's ground terminal: 0.6 ohm

Any comments? Are these readings reasonable?

Still not sure, but I think it is the slip-ring….!? The center of the column/boss is just “solid steel” see pic. I probably have to dismantle the entire column to get access to the ring….. This set-up is not original; however is it original Formula steering wheel boss? Any input whether the slip ring is accessible without dismantling the entire column?

Observation: I putted a screwdriver into the hole where the horn pencil is placed then the horns sound load and clear when it hit the slip-ring. I assume that proper grounding was achieved. Why it is not earthing through the horn pencil is a “mystery” to me  :-/ – and, yes I’ve checked with a brand new horn pencil…..  :P

[junkuser]

Sounds as though the pencil may be too short for your set-up from what you say.

[garyf]

Is your steering wheel a Formula Speedwell type?

I have one of these on my Car and the Boss is in two parts which fit either side the Alloy wheel and clamp it, I can't see clearly from the photograph, but it looks like the lower part of your Boss has been soldered or welded to the centre shaft?

This lower piece should pull off the splines of the shaft with the rest of the upper boss and steering wheel to give you access to the Horn pencil slip ring?

can you take some more photo's of the steering Wheel and upper column?    

[Einar]

Well, I assume it is the slip-ring. I used some electronic cleaner and cotton swabs/Q-tips through the hole for the horn pencil and somewhat cleaned the slip-ring by turning the steering wheel. Then I applied some Vaseline through the hole – again with cotton swabs/Q-tips. When all is assembled the horn sounds very loud and clear  :) I do assume it is the slip-ring and have concluded I need to disassemble the entire rack to get access. This may be done next year – now I need to be ready for this year season as the spring and sunny(!?) weather soon arrive  8)

[Dogsbody47uk]

I have had the same problem with aftermarket steering wheels. a solution is to remove the horn pencil, break into the wiring and use an appropriate switch in or under th dash.

[Einar]

Already done by previous owner  :P Probably – as I’ve somewhat thought of, and you confirm – due to problems with aftermarket steering wheels. For me it is just to swop two cables and the horn work from a switch under the dash …… So, it is not a real problem but I just wanted it to work how it was supposed to work  8) If it again goes from working good, then bad to worse also this year, the switch under the dash may be the final solution. Thanks for the comment  :)

[Triumph Geordie]

My horn just sounds randomly whenever it feels like!  I cant see any obvious fault so Im considering disconnecting them this weekend. Pain in the backside these random beeps!!

[heraldcoupe]

8914 wrote:

My horn just sounds randomly whenever it feels like!  I cant see any obvious fault so Im considering disconnecting them this weekend. Pain in the backside these random beeps!!

It's the steering wheel or inner column making contact with the slip ring inside the outer column. Often caused by a worn upper steering column bush or a badly adjusted clearance between the wheel and outer column. It can happen with an original wheel, but it's far more common with aftermarket steering wheels,

Cheers,
Bill.

[herald948]

heraldcoupe wrote:

It's the steering wheel or inner column making contact with the slip ring inside the outer column. Often caused by a worn upper steering column bush or a badly adjusted clearance between the wheel and outer column. It can happen with an original wheel, but it's far more common with aftermarket steering wheels.

Been there, done that. Easily fixed -- at least short term -- by undoing the clamp and pulling the inner column/steering wheel out just that tiniest fraction of an inch!
;D