Spitfire 1500 dolomite starter

[uksnatcher]

I fanced one of those super-duper hi-torque starters for Meatball....It has come to light I have a 1500 dolomite flywheel/ring gear and a dolly pre-engaged starter.

Reading through the forum i have found the dolly ring gear is 'different' to take the pre engaged starter, sharper teeth with no chamfered assistance for the spit inertia type,is that the only difference?

The Denso starters are pre-engaged but will the teeth bind correctly using the dolly ring gear?

Suggestions of change the flywheel/starter for a spitfire type is not an viable option unfortunatly.  

Has anybody succesfully fitted a high torque Nippon-denso starter to similar set up as mine IE dolomite 1500 ring gear?

The cross references i have found on the Powerlite starter web site show the same part numbered hi-torque starter is suitable for the 1500 + 1300 spitfire, mg midget 1500 and dolomite (not sprint), and i know the Isuzu Trooper 2.3 nippon denso starter fits the spit with a thinner sandwich plate with no issues and is a whole lot cheaper.

Cheers
Gaz

[Richard B]

Dolomite 1300 is the same as Spitfire, it's only the Dolomite 1500 that got the unique flywheel and starter.

Different teeth and gearing. I would say change the flywheel or think of something else to do....

[uksnatcher]

Quoted from Richard B

Dolomite 1300 is the same as Spitfire, it's only the Dolomite 1500 that got the unique flywheel and starter.

Different teeth and gearing. I would say change the flywheel or think of something else to do....

Cheers Richard,

S'cuse the questions but i dont know much about starters, more of a 'nuts n bolts' man, but looks like i am buying new like for like or reconditioning the old starter then...

My starter is generally ok, a bit too sluggish when very cold or left for a few days but always starts, spins the engine great after running for a few mins, no wiring or solenoid probs and a new high amp battery fitted.

I belive its this starter i need ....but what a price compaired to other triumph starters...! :
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220296730326&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Would new brushes improve things, i have never really bothered with reconing stuff electrical as its usually more effective buying new, but at about 6 quid for new brushes is it worth a go or are these starters normally so sluggish anyway?

Is changing the brushes a straight forward job too?

Cheers
Gaz

[Richard B]

Talk to Dave Pearson at Canley Classics, he got a reconditioned one for Jessica's Hearld. It was cheaper than that.



ps Jessica's Herald has a 1500 with a Dolomite starter (as she found out last year).

[willows40]

Had my dolly starter re-conned along with the one for my pi done last year by local company and think i paid £45 for the two but don`t know who done them as a mate of mine works for local motor factors and he sorted it for me.
Not a lot of help to you but you should be able to find someone to re-conned it local to you for a lot less than the price of the one on e-bay.

cheers andy

[Nick Jones]

My experience is that the 1500 dolly starter will work with the Spit/Herald ring gear although it doesn't sound as happy as it does with the right ring gear.

As for the other way around..... it will engage about 1 time in 20 and make a truly horrible noise the other 19.......

I'd guess the Denso will work but I'm guaranteeing nothing!  I always found the pre-engaged Dolly one to be very effective - goodness knows why it was unique to that car though.

Nick

[Richard B]

I'm surprised the Spitfire 1500 was not upgraded to it.

[willows40]

mine is

[uksnatcher]

Quoted from Richard B

Talk to Dave Pearson at Canley Classics

Thanks Richard

Canleys quote about 100 quid minus 40 quid exchange for the old starter....about the price of the Denso starter....hmmm

Quoted from willows40

mine is

Thanks Willows
I have never experienced the inertia type starter as this pre engaged starter was on when i bought it 12mths ago, other than ste's GT6 (which is a different bag of bits totally)

Willows...after fitting the recon starter is it REALLY sluggish when left for a few days, then fine after a few mins? Mine is, since i bought it in fact .....yet totally acceptable and normal when cold or left for say 24hrs outside in the cold...warm it spins like a modern..

Engine oil is classic 20/50, 3 oil changes in the 12 mths/ 5k miles i have owned havn't made any difference at all. Nearly daily useage so its not been stood for ages.

Quoted from Nick Jones

My experience is that the 1500 dolly starter will work with the Spit/Herald ring gear although it doesn't sound as happy as it does with the right ring gear.

As for the other way around..... it will engage about 1 time in 20 and make a truly horrible noise the other 19.......

I'd guess the Denso will work but I'm guaranteeing nothing!  I always found the pre-engaged Dolly one to be very effective - goodness knows why it was unique to that car though.

Nick

Thanks Nick
My thoughts too and i fully understand no garantee, i am tempted to try the denso as its got 9 champhered teeth to suit the sharp sided teeth of the spitfire ring gear (same as the 1500 dolly ring gear/starter)
Would love to see the two compaired ring gears teeth pitch profile before i buy one tho.

I belive the spit ring gear has champhered teeth on the clutch side and sharp on the engine side to aid engagement with the inertia type starter, and the dolly ring gear is sharp on both sides of the teeth hence the non-engagement and grinding with an inertia type starter used with a dolly 1500 ring gear.  Inertia type starters need all the help they can get using two champhers purley on the nature of how they work.
Pre-engaged says it all....starter solonoid engages/meshes assisted champhred gear into ring gear teeth first (engine side) then starter turns, inertia type throws the gear into mesh (clutch side) as the starter turns.
Inertia starter will almost never work with sharp teeth, hit and miss engagement and lots of crunchy noises.
The pre enaged starter uses the sharp engine side of the ring gear and will click/clonk if not engaged and whine after engaged if not meshed correctly.

[willows40]

The starter on my spitfire spin it over the same no matter how long its been standing, Its the wifes and has only been used twice since november.
I have never seen the need for these high output starters when the originals do the job perfectly ok.

cheers andy

[Richard B]

Quoted from willows40

I have never seen the need for these high output starters when the originals do the job perfectly ok.

My Spitfire with the 6-3-1 Mike the Pipe extractor could only physically take the Spitfire/GT6 starter, this kept getting burnt out with the High Compression 2.5PI.

There was no space for the Saloon pre-engaged starter.


I do not think they are needed on the 4 pots, but they are a benefit on the 6 pots and they do crank them over quicker than normal.

[Paudman]

Quoted from willows40

I have never seen the need for these high output starters when the originals do the job perfectly ok.

cheers andy

It's when they don't that owners start to look for an alternative.

[willows40]

i have two 2.5 sixes and two 4 cyl spits and one 4 cyl 16v highly tuned triumphs all run on standard starters without a problem, It just seems an upgrade for upgrade sake which is normally more expensive than replacing with a standard starter.

cheers andy

[MarkB]

I had ongoing problems with my GT6, with a sluggish turnover when cold or left for a while, once engine initially started, and was ran for a minute I could turn it off and it would trip over its self it span so fast and couldn't fail to start. All the terminals and leads to battery/solenoid/starter looked good. The starter had been replaced with a recon two to three years prior so thought it must be a battery which was replaced. It made a bit of difference, but if I didn't get it started after the first couple of times it would really struggle and I would have to put the battery on charge. I even thought the engine was binding up for some reason it was that bad. I finally had enough of this a couple of months back and sorted through a box of starter to solenoid leads I had. As I went through them there were two types which I had never noticed before one was half again as thick as the other, obviously a lot meatier. I removed the one from my GT6 which was of the skinnier type. I also noticed that where the terminals were joined on the ends the black plastic insulation was slightly fatter. I thought it was where the terminals were soldered to the copper wire. I cut back the plastic insulation and was surprised to see thick green corrosion about two inches down each end of the lead. Anyway replaced it with one of the thicker leads and it spins over really fast even after being left for a couple of weeks buried in snow. All the leads I have are original items taken off Vitesses Spits etc. So it would be worth considering before replacing your starter.

[uksnatcher]

Cheers Blue...!

Are you refering to the starter solenoid on the bulkhead or actually fitted on the starter motor as this one i have is pre engaged (on the starter) not the inertia (bulkhead) type
I will check the wires to the starter for corrosion under any insulation tho, good point.

My thoughts on fitting the hi-torque starter are based on cost.....thats it really.

60 pound for a recon Lucas , 70 pound for a recon Denso. Both will do me right, its not a performance engine, just want reliability when its been parked up a couple of days.
If the Lucas was a reasonable price like most other pre engaged 70's cars the Lucas it will be. If  the Denso will fit and work , the Denso it will be.

Anybody fitted brushes to the Lucas starter with any improvement? and how straight forward is it?

Cheers
Gaz

[MarkB]

Hi Gaz

No, my car is fitted with the standard lucas starter, so the lead I replaced runs from the solenoid on the bulk head to the starter. So in your case you could just run a jump lead to the solenoid on the starter up to your battery and see if it makes any difference.

Cheers
Blue  

[uksnatcher]

Heres an update on my dolly 1500 starter/ring gear on the spit to assist anybody with the same prob.

The dolly pre engaged starter gave up the ghost this week, barely turning the engine over so tried a hi-torque Denso starter recommended for the spit/gt6, it wont work as the pinion has 9 teeth but the diameter on the spit/gt6 starter is larger by approx 2mm compaired to the dolly pinion, it fits the gearbox but wont mesh as the flywheel ring gear is larger in diameter and the denso starter pinion simply hits the ring gear when the solenoid is energised. I compaired it to an old inertia starter i have too and its clearly very different for the 1500 dolly.

The Lucas M35J starter 25213H unbelievably appears unique to the dolomite 1500 and unavailable for purchase brand new and recon units at less than £60 anywere (not taking into account the surcharges and delivery/petrol cost)

I gave the now failing starter to a local electrical specialist who tested and stripped it and the brushes are worn but ok, its the armature thats burnt out in 4 segments so a simple re-brush wont suffice so a quote of my starter totally reconditioned (new brushes, brush housing, springs, shaft bushes, thrust washers, armature, solenoid, pinion gear etc) is £75, with the hassle/cost of aquiring a canleys starter for £60 i have opted for the reconditioning of my old one as the elec specialist is only 2 miles down the road. (rather than a 220 mile round trip to canleys or postage costs to and from)

So anybody thinking of using the spit/gt6 etc hi-torque starter with the dolly ring gear....dont bother..   😉

PS...Nice new Denso Hi-torque starter up for grabs, pm me for price.

[bodders1]

Hi uksnatcher

If the difference between the pinion diameters on the standard and hi-torque starters is only 2mm as you say, you only need to move the starter body 1mm further out from the centre of the flywheel.  Could this be done by enlarging the mounting holes in the starter with a file or a drill?

[dinger]

Been there - seen it - changed flywheel - problem gone - Starter was always sluggish as a pre-engaged unit ... Installed an old style side brusk inertia starter ..

[uksnatcher]

Quoted from bodders1

Hi uksnatcher

If the difference between the pinion diameters on the standard and hi-torque starters is only 2mm as you say, you only need to move the starter body 1mm further out from the centre of the flywheel.  Could this be done by enlarging the mounting holes in the starter with a file or a drill?

Bodders, that suggestion was thought about at the time too, I dont know and didnt want to start hacking a new motor to find out 😆 might have worked, i will leave that to someone else to find out as the teeth profile might not mesh correctly afterwards...?

Dinger.....PM sent mate.

[drofgum]

Quoted from bodders1

Hi uksnatcher

If the difference between the pinion diameters on the standard and hi-torque starters is only 2mm as you say, you only need to move the starter body 1mm further out from the centre of the flywheel.  Could this be done by enlarging the mounting holes in the starter with a file or a drill?

This may well work, but when the starter must be changed again will you remember? It is also a bodge and that is something to avoid when there is a better approach. We already have enough bodges to fix.
                                                                 Cheers,
                                                                 Paul

[uksnatcher]

Quoted from drofgum

This may well work, but when the starter must be changed again will you remember? It is also a bodge and that is something to avoid when there is a better approach. We already have enough bodges to fix.
                                                                 Cheers,
                                                                 Paul

Good chance it would work loose too, fair bit of cranking power in the denso unit.

I cant see any problems arising from a properly recon starter, denso unit in classified ads on the right too now if anybody is interested. 😉

[uksnatcher]

Anybody with the pre engaged Dolly 1500 starter/ring-gear set up interested....heres the update a couple of months on.

The old Lucas M35J 25213H starter was profesionally stripped and tested, found to have burnt out x3 areas of the quadrents on the actuator windings, 2 of the 4 brushes were worn to nothing and the solenoid was weak too.

All new innards fitted for 75 pounds....now turns the engine over effortlessly....-0 degrees no problem (dance)

Heres the company i used, highly recommended..! http://www.power-pac.co.uk/

Who ever mentioned a hi-torque starter...

[keef]

Quoted from uksnatcher

The Lucas M35J starter 25213H unbelievably appears unique to the dolomite 1500

Just taken one off my 1979 Austin Morris Maxi 1750HLS.

[Jason1969]

Good read. I remember when I first put a second hand engine into my Spit in 93 and it was recommended to change the flywheel to the dolomite if available as the pre-engaged starter was deemed to bemore efficient. Glad to know there is still someone who will recon as I was beginning to worry about a replacement.

Thanks