Jonny-Jimbo Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 Hi all,How easy / difficult is it to get the crank out of a Mk1 2.5? I have the gearbox out to try and trace a fault in the gear change / clutch assembly. I was led to believe it could have been the tapered pin, but that is actually fine, and looks brand new.The gear change itself felt fine, so I decided to investigate the clutch, and taking that off showed no problems with the friction plate or the cover, in fact both looked pretty new.But then, to my horror, I saw this...Yes, TWO of the flywheel bolts were totally loose!! Only thing that stopped them falling out entirely was the clutch plate!! I think that is my problem! In my head, the clutch wouldn't fully disengage as these two bolts were butted right up to it, so the pressure plate couldn't slide enough, and would also explain the 'notch' on the pedal. The easy bit was the free movement, and then once the pressure plate was jammed on the bolts, the harder movement was all hydraulic movement of the seals pushing etc.However, after taking the flywheel off, I found this;So the back of the crank is covered in rust and 'extra' material - not sure if this has come from the flywheel vibrating on it as the back of the flywheel has similar damage too.So, how hard is it to drop the crank out of a 2.5 without having to pull the whole engine out? I'm getting very concerned about having this job done in time before RBRR now. I'm now on ebay every day looking for cars I can buy that are running and MOT'd and just 'doing it' and if we break down, then so be it... I am NOT missing RBRR '16!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh18 Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 Wow good find! If it were me I would use a stone or something and re-flat the mating surfaces (very gently) and see how it fits after that. If OK just re-fit it with lock tight on the bolts. But maybe it's worse than it looks.Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPearce Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 I'm with Josh - take a die grinder to the rough bits (or a Dremel if you don't have a compact air-powered die grinder) on both faces then re-fit. Odds are it will go on fine, straight, and give you no trouble. Worst case it'll be slightly wonky, leading to clutch judder, which you can live with until after RBRR. You should be able to assess the run-out before reinstalling the clutch and maybe shim up the side that's been hacked if necessary.I don't think dropping the crank with the engine in situ is practical (I have replaced all the bearings with the crank in situ but that's a totally different matter). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard w Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 Hi Jon. Hope you get yours sorted in time, but failing that there is a nice looking Dolly in Rugby. It's an 1850 auto, looks pretty straight on the interweb pics and has a long MOT (June 2017) He's asking £1800, which sounds ok to me, although I'm no expert on Dolomite values! No connection to the seller - just saw your concerns and thought I'd have a look.http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C782705 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny-Jimbo Posted August 30, 2016 Author Share Posted August 30, 2016 The raised lumps are on the crank - the flywheel side is indented, so that won't clean up as such. I might fill it with chemical metal though just to get a flat surface.The raised lumps on the crank are around 3mm thick - they won't scrape off with a scraper etc, so they are definitely metal and it's not just 'crud'. A grinder may well do the job, if I can find them I do have some grinding bits. I did wonder about grinding it, but thought I would judge opinion first. I just can't tell how the mating surface has got so crap. I'll have a go at cleaning it tomorrow night.Thanks for the link Richard, I did actually find that earlier and I have arranged to view it this evening. Might be better for RBRR anyway! Better on fuel, possibly more refined and has a CD player in it already! if it's good enough I might buy it as a 'just in case' car! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidb5964 Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 Hi Jon.Not wishing to try to teach you how to suck eggs but if you grind it ensure it ends up flat to concave not convex.Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 I would use a file flat on the face to clean it up with less chance of over doing it and then refit the flywheel IN THE SAME PLACE. After all it didnt vibrate before did it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 J-J,If the lumps are solid then they have always been there. That face should be machined smooth, flat and true, from the factory. I wonder if you have a 'Monday morning' crank that got through QC (at Triumph? What QC?), because that surface looks like original casting surface. Compare with casting surfaces elsewhere, block, gearbox etc.And the Lumps correspond to depressions on the flywheel centre? Probably from it fluttering on the two remaining tight bolts. Rather than trying to to handface it in situ I'd bolt it back up, enzuring the lumps and depressions registered, loktited, torqued etc. Then check the run out on the flywheel rim. If its good - can't remember a figure - then leave it be.The only other way is crank out, not easy in situ and take it and FW to a machine shop. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidb5964 Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 JonI can bring you a clock and mag base tomorrow if you need one to measure the runout Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPearce Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 Quoted from Jonny-Jimbo Thanks for the link Richard, I did actually find that earlier and I have arranged to view it this evening. Might be better for RBRR anyway! Better on fuel, possibly more refined I never did try the RBRR in my 1850 but I was commuting daily from Banbury to Warwick when I replaced it with a 2500S, and I can tell you that the S was very definitely the more refined AND marginally the more economical of the two! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny-Jimbo Posted August 30, 2016 Author Share Posted August 30, 2016 Hi Dave,Yup, that would be great if you could bring me a mag base and clock.Thing is that other bits of the crank face have machined and have the lapped marks on there.Glang, it can only go back in one location - that's what the dowel does!Well, I've arranged to go and look at the Dolomite anyway this evening, no harm in looking I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TedTaylor Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 JJ I know you have resolved the need but from my experience you will have to remove the engine to get the crank out. When we were checking the old crank in my Mk1 PI estate because of oil pressure problems we were having a look to see if we could remove the crank with the engine in situ and decided we could not. Mind you when we did strip it we found the crank was fooked Looking at the crank flywheel boss end - is that thrust peg OK? Looks to have a ridge on it. I know I am telling you the obvious but of course the crank is long back and in case there are any issues with it I have a fully refurbished balanced, tuftrided 60 thou crank here that I am selling with a set of VP spec shells as I located a standard spec spare which I will now be using.As for clutch problems. We had a very heavy short travel clutch in Woodie which was a bu**ar to use so Andrew (Newman our now third driver) popped it out in his workshop today to have a look. What he found I will be posting with pics later but just lets say that the only part of the clutch that was OK were the hydraulics!MUT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nang Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 I have a feeling that if you try bodge this without appropriate machining , which can only be obtained by stripping the motor, the whole thing will end up in tears. Can you not find another motor to use for the time being ?Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 Quoted from Jonny-Jimbo Hi Dave,Yup, that would be great if you could bring me a mag base and clock.Thing is that other bits of the crank face have machined and have the lapped marks on there.Glang, it can only go back in one location - that's what the dowel does!Well, I've arranged to go and look at the Dolomite anyway this evening, no harm in looking I guess. Ooops well that would make it easier! But it sounds like youre going to be getting the engine out and doing the whole rebuild anyway...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted August 30, 2016 Share Posted August 30, 2016 I would NOT bodge the back of the crank - it needs to be properly ground flat on a machine.I think it is possible to drop the crank out without removing the whole engine but a bit of a ball-ache.You'll need to remove the front pulley, chain case, chain and probably the sprocket. You'll need to remove the bridge piece to access the front main and the backplate. You may also need to remove the front plate or you may find you can sneak the crank out at an angle once the main caps are off. Crank is heavy-ish - nearly 30kg. Is it really a long-back - looks like a short in the pic though could be the angle of the shot......Unusual (and irritating) fault!Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny-Jimbo Posted August 31, 2016 Author Share Posted August 31, 2016 Here's the deal then - I never had any problem with the clutch before - and it never juddered etc. So, I think the only thing causing the issues was the bolts coming loose.So, plan of campaign now is to clean the back of the crank a bit, get the flywheel back on and bolted up and check the run out using Dave's clock and mag base. If the run out is acceptable I will leave it as is, BUT I will lockwire the flywheel bolts to give a positive locking on them so they can't come undone again.I know the crank needs machining really to make it correct, but I don't have the time for that (The car currently has no rear suspension, brakes, seats, etc etc etc). I will do the crank machining when I have the engine apart next, which may not be that long away... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPearce Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 That sounds a sensible plan. I should say that my initial recommendation was a "get it going for now" with the idea that you'll be able to sort it out properly after the RBRR. Like you say, if it was working OK until the bolts came loose then, for now, don't fix what wasn't broken.(I was also going to edit that first post to add "and use some loctite or similar" but wirelocking is probably more robust). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny-Jimbo Posted September 1, 2016 Author Share Posted September 1, 2016 Stuck the flywheel back on last night after a little cleaning up of the surfaces, the crank and the flywheel seemed to mate well. I didn't lockwire or locktite the bolts though as I have a new set on order from Chris Witor. Also, Dave has lent me a DTI on a mag base so I can check the run out.3 thou at 5" radius is what the manual says... which is fine except that 5" radius will go over the mounting holes for the clutch... Good old Triumph! 😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPearce Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 They probably specified the 5" radius because it's where it matters - the edge of the clutch. You could extrapolate to check against 3.5 thou at 5.8" radius if you're fairly sure the flywheel itself is flat - after all, it's the mounting you're checking here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny-Jimbo Posted September 1, 2016 Author Share Posted September 1, 2016 I'm fairly sure the flywheel is flat... It's look horrible on an RA test, but that's a bit beyond the scope of a 50 year old lump of cast iron haha.I'll do the run out test and if it's close enough I'll stick it back together, if it's slightly out I could shim it (Davidb5964 has shim steel etc), if it's horrific I'll weigh up my options... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Quoted from Jonny-Jimbo Stuck the flywheel back on last night after a little cleaning up of the surfaces, the crank and the flywheel seemed to mate well. I didn't lockwire or locktite the bolts though as I have a new set on order from Chris Witor. Also, Dave has lent me a DTI on a mag base so I can check the run out.3 thou at 5" radius is what the manual says... which is fine except that 5" radius will go over the mounting holes for the clutch... Good old Triumph! 😀 Was the cleaning up difficult and thats why you only did a little? Im going to stick my neck out here and say that I'd be surprised if this problem gives you any more hassle, ever! However I dont know how you could lockwire the bolts and anyway think this is too much of a departure from the original design (which seems sufficient in 99% of cases) but would torque em to the correct setting and use loctite.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny-Jimbo Posted September 1, 2016 Author Share Posted September 1, 2016 Probably my turn of phrase was bad, or classic British understatement? I don't know... Anyway, they seem to be mated well.Lockwiring the bolts would be easy - drill the heads through on them and then lockwire them together with a pigtail twist on the end to lock the wires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 If I may, JJ, lockwiring is easy, lockwiring properly is a great skill.The twists, the orientation, the tightness, which bolts you do, must be just right to be effective.I know, because I've tried, and it usually looks bodged!Several videos online, esp one about propeller bolts.John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny-Jimbo Posted September 1, 2016 Author Share Posted September 1, 2016 You are quite right John, it is an art to get it looking super neat. The hardest bit I find is finding a small drill bit that is good enough to drill the bolt heads. I did some practice ones last night and found out the pillar of my pillar drill is bent... Machine Mart sh1t! I put a straight edge on the tube and it's bowed.Anyway, I'm playing this one by ear. If the gearbox has to come out again after RBRR, I can live with that. What I can't live with, is missing RBRR!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piman Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 Hello Jonny, if you mean the main column, I wouldn't worry too much as long as the spindle is running true. I also slightly counter sink the hole so as the wire is not running over a sharp edge.Alec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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