Oh dear - Engine rattle getting worse.

[Antonnick]

@ Rob - yes the 1 mm applies to both sides and the nuts are finger tightened just enough to make the pedastal stable.

No. it is not an external rocker feed but the Connection to the oil pressure gauge.

@ Nick - I think for peace of mind it will be a good Thing to do to remove the Distributor Body even though the Timing will be disturbed. But the engine is sitting now at TDC so that should not cause a Problem if putting everything back together as it is.

That will have to wait though - I am going to Berlin tomorrow for a week to relive some meories of when I did live there. 😊

The Oil gauge.......

 

[Antonnick]

It has been already over a month. I managed to set in place what I think is the right thickness gasket and have done some test driving around. I do not take the car out on the road when it is wet so the opportunities have been  minimal.

So to bring the thread to an end, at first I thought the noise had gone but probably because of the lower temps this time of year it took longar than usual for the oil to warm up and the noise then came back.

Oh I forgot, I did remove the pedestal from the Distributor Body as Nick recommended in order to measure the clearance.

For the time being I have given up. The car is now in winter Hibernation anyway. Next year I will not make any Long journeys in it as previously planned but use it locally, perhaps max 200km a day just to see what develops.

The next Task however is the Drivers door which has a horrible gap at the bottom - that was another thread I think. 

 

[glang]

Thats a pity about the long journeys because I think a trip to your nearest Triumph meeting could not only be enjoyable but also a useful place to compare engine noise with other Heralds and get their owners opinion of yours.....

[Antonnick]

I had not thought of that - there is a Spitfire Club here in Germany although it is quite small in numbers and they do have Meetings around the Country - I will investigate for next year, thanks.

 

[Antonnick]

It has been a long time. My problem is still there but today I went to see a proper mechanic (retired) and with no hesitation he said it was the crankshaft. 

"does it rumble on a cold start?" he asked me. 

when I told him it did, he was 100% sure that the Crank was at fault. 

Apart from the main two main suppliers, is there anywhere or anyone else in GB I can get one (exchange or whatever) ?

[glang]

Hi, yes so the rattle came back😞 What is the mechanic saying is exactly wrong with the crank? My guess is that its bearing journals are worn out of round and, because of this, the new bearings havent lasted very long. This can be confirmed by careful measurement of the journals and then, if confirmed, corrected by regrinding the crankshaft. It involves taking a small amount of metal off the journals on a special machine so that they are once again prefectly round and then rebuilding the engine with oversize bearings (theres different sizes available depending on how much metal has to be removed from the journals). Its actually not an especially expensive job and certainly in the UK theres quite a few places that can do it but of course the engine has to be removed and dismantled so many people end up completely overhauling it which then does raise the cost substantially....

[Antonnick]

The rattle never really went away, I have been driving it only occaisionally and try not to do more than 70kmh.

I am having a look to see who may be able to regrind locally. I took the head off recently and renewed the valves and springs and removed the carbon. Cylinder nr 4 had obviously been letting in water as it was clean! I noticed on removing the cylinder head bolts that some of the nuts were not that tight so perhaps that was the reason. 

I renewed all the studs and nuts as well as the gasket of course.

[Antonnick]

This is what it looked like when the head was off

[glang]

yes no.4 has definitiely been 'steam' cleaned. Are you happy with the amount of wear on pistons and bores so would just go for a crank refurb?

[Antonnick]

The pistons have obviously been renewed and a rebore done as they are stamped +0.030 ( from memory). 

would that be a reasonable conclusion?

[glang]

yes and thats interesting as the engine has obviously done quite a few miles (unless the rebore was necessary for another reason like engine seizure) so indicating that the crank, if original and std. size, has done the same and probably overdue for a regrind....

[Antonnick]

Hard to tell if it has done the miles or not ( it does km now 😊 ) but it was quite poorly when I got it and hardly anything worked - heater, doors , windows, boot lid etc. The oil was so thick and black I had to renew it three times in as many months before it became clean. So in a sentence totally vernachlässigt ...."neglected" says my dictionary. Obviously it was not garaged at all and had only done just over 400 miles in 8 years according to the MOT records. 

But apart from the noise rattel/knock, it looks and drives quite nicely now. 

 

[Antonnick]

Engine is out, bottom end dismantled and the Crankshaft is on the bench. 

I do not have a micrometer so have used digital calipers.

Main Bearing measurements at 90° to each other

1  50,82      50,78

2  50,82      50,76

3. 50,76       50,74 

The Manual quotes 50,81 for the Journal and 50,85 for the internal dia ??? am not sure which is relvant. 

 

Big end measurements at 90° to each other

1.  41,11    41,25

2.  41,20    41,29

3.  41,19    41,24

4.   41,10   41,31 

The manual gives the value of  41,30 

 

Can it be concluded that the Crankshaft is due for a grind and more importantly ( because I am sending oit off anyway for this to be done) that this is the cause of the engine noise?

[Antonnick]

Another question . With the engine bottom end open  you can easily see the Camshaft. One of the surfaces is marked/scratched. Is this bad?

The area is marked by the arrow

 

[glang]

Hi, the journal size given is the relevant one as the internal diameter is the inside measurement of the two bearing shells when assembled so will obviously be bigger than the journal diameter to give the necessary clearance.

Its notoriously difficult to get good enough measurements with a caliper as opposed to using a micrometer but I would say some of the bigends look too far out of round. What do the bearing shells you put in look like?

The cam lobe needs further inspection to assess the damage. They are surface hardened so once worn the softer metal is exposed....  

[RobPearce]

The cam lobe you've highlighted is the fuel pump lobe. I think that narrow ring is common with modern reproduction pumps. It's undesirable but not as serious as it would be on one of the valve lobes. If you can find a pump with a wider / smoother operating arm then you should change it.

[Antonnick]

I assume you mean an original Stanpart pump? 

[RobPearce]

Original Stanpart ones are the best, if you can find them.

[glang]

Its true, I've seen original and Moprod NOS items on ebay and the former have a cast operating arm with wide pad in the contact area while the other is made of sheet metal but folded into a very wide channel shape. Either is a much better design than the stamped single thin sheet arms used on the pumps currently offered by the major suppliers.

I know theres been problems with the output pressure from some of these new pumps but didnt realise their operating arms are also poor🙁

[PeteStupps]

Quoted from glang-

Its true, I've seen original and Moprod NOS items on ebay and the former have a cast operating arm with wide pad in the contact area while the other is made of sheet metal but folded into a very wide channel shape. Either is a much better design than the stamped single thin sheet arms used on the pumps currently offered by the major suppliers.

I know theres been problems with the output pressure from some of these new pumps but didnt realise their operating arms are also poor🙁

Not only that but the hand-priming levers are a cruel hoax, which the unsuspecting idiot can operate pointlessly for many minutes when suffering from vapour lock. 

[Antonnick]

I have my Crankshaft back from its regrind and I have fitted it and the pistons. It may be my imagination but I had the feeling it was easier to pull up piston nr 4 ( that which was "steam cleaned" 😀) compared to the others when bolting it up with new bearings. That is by the way.

Altough I have not (purposely) moved the camshaft from its position prior to dissassembly and the Crank was then at TDC, I would like to redo the timing just to be sure. The head is still attached. 

I do not however understand the logic in the workshop manual.

For my understanding, when the crank is at TDC, then only the valves 1 and 2 need to be closed.

The manual tells me to adjust the clearances to 1 mm on valves 7 and 8 per normal practice and then turn the crank more until inlet valve nr 4 is "on the rock" and (presumably nr 5) outlet is "almost closed". Then the sprockets and chain is put on. I would have thought that in that position, the relationship between crank and camshaft was way out? 

There is a very complicated video in U-tube ( Erin Yakov) showing how to do this but this does seem very risky.

Can anyone ( glang.......😄 ) explain?

thanks

Antonia

[RobPearce]

That does sound wrong but it may just be a misreading.

When the crankshaft is at TDC for No1 & 4, and the camshaft is set for No1 firing, then cylinder No4 is at TDC between exhaust and inlet. At this point, the valves for cylinder 4 are "on the rock" - the exhaust is just closing and the inlet just opening. In fact, there is rather more overlap than that, so the setting up is done with increased valve clearance so that the point of balance is more obvious.

So I think you've just misread that manual, and when you quote "inlet valve Nr 4 is 'on the rock'" what you actually mean is "the valves on cylinder 4 are 'on the rock'", which is valve No 7 opening and No 8 closing.

However, the officially sanctioned method (which may be a little late now) for maintaining the timing on a crank removal without replacing the timing gears, is to put the engine at TDC before dismantling and punch (or otherwise mark) dots onto both timing gears along the line between the centres.

[glang]

Yes Antonia do it as Rob says (if theres no alignment marks) and then carefully remove the camshaft sprocket without disturbing its position. Turn the crank to TDC on 1 and 4 then try to put the chain and sprocket back on. Remember to take up the slack in the chain and if it wont line up then the sprocket can be rotated or even turned over until you find two holes that will allow the bolts to go in while maintaining the correct setting. Lastly turn the crank over a few times and check the set up is still correct.

[Antonnick]

Oh dear yes I did read the manual incorrectly, thinking it meant nr 4 valve not nr 4 cylinder as explained. I am very grateful for the correction and now it makes sense to me. 

I need to do the rear end first and fit the new lip type seal. Once this is done, the engine can be mounted on the engine stand, turned the right way up and the front end completed including timing chain. It is a new one anyway which I fitted about 1000 km ago. At the moment it is supported upside down on old tyres. Then I made sure crank and cam were at TDC before the old sprockets came off. I did the same this time as well but.......I think the cam got moved 😐

 

 

[glang]

Its a good idea to set it up from basics anyway just to confirm that the cam timing is 100%👍