Engine rebuild mystery - can you ID a 1500 engine?

[rockrockmcrock]

First hi guys - this is my first post to this forum so TIA for any help. Sorry for the long post but I have a real mystery I could do with some help on.  If you want to skip the lengthy post below then the two Q's I have relating to a MKIV Spitfire are:
- how do you positively ID a 1500? (i.e. not a Frankenstein 1500 block with 1300 crank and head - read rest of post below for why as this is not as simple as it may first seem)
- after 7 years lay-up if I'm already taking it apart for a head gasket replacement what else (apart from lower end seals) would you replace?

Anyway the 'Mystery' & some 'Background':
I've owned my Spitfire MKIV (UK) '1300' for many years - It was my first car, I took my driving test in it, met my future wife in it, went to university in it and got married in it. Over that time I completely rebuilt it 3 times - TBH I'm not sure how much of the original car is left, as it has had a new chassis (crashed it when I was 18yrs old), gearbox (wanted O/D), 2 x engine rebuilds....etc. etc.   8)

It was in daily use as a commuter car until mid 2007 when I took it off the road for another rebuild and respray, before kids came along and all my workshop fun stopped.... :'(

...until now in 2014! So given all that I should know the difference between a 1500 and a 1300 engine right? Apparently not, as I have just found out that my '1300' block is actually a 1500 with 1300 ancillaries - the powers of the modern internet were not with me in the late 90s when I last rebuilt it and so I just assumed it matched the reg docs! After 20+years of ownership it came as a bit of a shock to say the least! ??)

So having reground the crank and replaced the big end / shell bearings and done the head gasket several times I have never noticed - not surprising as these parts are exactly the same as late model 1300 (which is what I thought it was). So now I'm wondering, given that all the ancillaries (manifold, carbs etc.) are '1300', that the head from memory is also 1300 (i.e. 2 central inlets not 1 big one) - could the crank and pistons also be '1300'? In other words do I have a 1500 block with complete 1300 components which would make it a 1300? Is this even possible (I think so from memory!)? And more importantly if that is the case how do I identify it?

Are there any gurus out there that might know the answer? I could leave well enough alone but given my history with this car I'd really like to solve this mystery! :-/

Thanks guys
RMR

[WIMPUS]

Did you check the engine number ?
http://www.triumphspitfire.com/enginenumbers.html

[ferny]

All 1300 and 1500 heads are eight port. The 1500 exhaust manifold has twinned middle sections, but the head doesn't. What are the cylinder head and engine block numbers?

[Sorry, link no longer available]

[rockrockmcrock]

4526 wrote:

Did you check the engine number ?
http://www.triumphspitfire.com/enginenumbers.html

Yup - that's how I found out is was a 1500 block with 1300 ancillaries (it's an FM not an FK block number). Up until that point everything had pointed to it being a 1300 block.

ferny wrote:

All 1300 and 1500 heads are eight port. The 1500 exhaust manifold has twinned middle sections, but the head doesn't. What are the cylinder head and engine block numbers?
[Sorry, link no longer available]

Yup my bad you are correct - I wrote inlet meaning 'cut into head', which is of course is an exit from the head for the exhaust! V. Sloppy of me - Doh!

From memory this is a 1300 head with 2 x small exit ports in the centre, rather than the 1x bigger one of the 1500 (the other 2 exhaust ports and 2 inlet ports are identical between versions if I remember rightly). I don't have head number to hand, but the above exit ports is a positive id one way or another I think - I presume this is what you mean by twinned although I was under the impression that the 1500 manifold was also of a single bore at the centre port?

As to the block it is definitely a 1500 (FM not an FK number), all major ancillaries (exhaust manifold, HS2 SU carbs & inlet manifold, water pump) are late 1300 which is why I was fooled!

This led to me thinking: can a 1300 crank be fitted to a 1500 block without modification? And if so how would you know? (As basically the 1500 is a longer throw 1300 from what I remember as BL ran out of cash to develop another engine)

[thescrapman]

10126 wrote:

This led to me thinking: can a 1300 crank be fitted to a 1500 block without modification?

And if so how would you know? (As basically the 1500 is a longer throw 1300 from what I remember as BL ran out of cash to develop another engine)

Yes, as a late 1300 block is the same as a 1500 block.

and as for knowing, you may just need to drop the sump.

Though you may be able to check teh sroke with a bit of wire down a pkug hole.

If you have a 1300 head on a 1500 block (crank) then you will have silly compression, keep blowing head gaskets and it will just not run right.

Cheers

Colin

[Doug Paterson]

Yep - my Spitfire has a 1300 (recessed) block but everything else is 1500.  

[rockrockmcrock]

Doug_P wrote:

Yep - my Spitfire has a 1300 (recessed) block but everything else is 1500.  

That kind of confirms it - I'm guessing if it's a 1300 head I have a 1300, if it's a 1500 head its a 1500. But the only sure way will be the piston throw / crank...

thescrapman wrote:

Yes, as a late 1300 block is the same as a 1500 block.

and as for knowing, you may just need to drop the sump.

Though you may be able to check teh sroke with a bit of wire down a pkug hole.

If you have a 1300 head on a 1500 block (crank) then you will have silly compression, keep blowing head gaskets and it will just not run right.

Cheers

Colin

That's what I thought  :( but good idea although I'd need to have a known 1500 or 1300 crank to compare it with. As for checking the throw that's an excellent suggestion, do you know what the throw on a 1300 is - my book tells me the compression ratio is close to 9:1? On a 1500 I think the throw is 3.44". As I'm removing the head this is an easy option.

My memory may be playing tricks on me wrt the head as it has been 14+years since I last had it off, but I'm not sure a 1300 head on a 1500 would cause as much of an issue as you suggest - I think the relative rise in compression will only be about 1 unit, so while high this would be manageable given a ~9:1 starting point on a 1300.

[rockrockmcrock]

OK - so I had the manifolds off today and it is definitely a 1300 head on a 1500 block....
...the mystery deepens!

So how I identify a 1300 or 1500 crank is the next problem!

[HMaze]

"From memory this is a 1300 head with 2 x small exit ports in the centre, rather than the 1x bigger one of the 1500 (the other 2 exhaust ports and 2 inlet ports are identical between versions if I remember rightly). I don't have head number to hand, but the above exit ports is a positive id one way or another I think - I presume this is what you mean by twinned although I was under the impression that the 1500 manifold was also of a single bore at the centre port?"

that is not true.
the heads look physically the same from the outside. 8-ports.

You need to check the head number, stamped in over the 3rd cylinder to identify the head to be a 1500 or a 1300.

Putting a 1300 head on a 1500 block (UK) would raise the compression ratio from 9,0:1 t0 aprox 10,2:1

See the list of paul geithner:

http://auskellian.com/paul/links_files/performance_enhancements.htm#heads

Harry

[rockrockmcrock]

2250 wrote:

that is not true.
the heads look physically the same from the outside. 8-ports.
You need to check the head number, stamped in over the 3rd cylinder to identify the head to be a 1500 or a 1300.

Wow - are you sure? Everyone without exception has told me, and all the workshop diagrams I have show, that 2 central exhaust ports in the head mean a 1300 block and 1 central exhaust port means a 1500. Similarly the 1300 exhaust gasket has a double central cut-out and the 1500 a single cut-out.

Not saying you're wrong - but I'd like to be positive I've read you right on this

I'll check the head number today and see what it comes up with.

[rockrockmcrock]

@HMaze - you sir are a genius.  8)

You were right and the experts at JP, Rimmer etc. etc. wrong. It is a 1500 head with 2 ports (if that head number table is correct in your link)

The head number is RKC0589 TKC1155
The block starts with an FM

So that's a confirmed 1500 block with a 1500 head (that has 2 central ports!)

So why do experts tell you there is a difference? why do suppliers list a different exhaust gasket? and why do manuals and diagrams show this difference (see attached diagram) between 1500 and 1300 heads? Odd to say the least!

[ferny]

10126 wrote:

Wow - are you sure? Everyone without exception has told me, and all the workshop diagrams I have show, that 2 central exhaust ports in the head mean a 1300 block and 1 central exhaust port means a 1500. Similarly the 1300 exhaust gasket has a double central cut-out and the 1500 a single cut-out.

Not saying you're wrong - but I'd like to be positive I've read you right on this

I'll check the head number today and see what it comes up with.

Yes, he's sure. Like I said in posts further up, the 1300 and 1500 are eight port heads and it's only the 1500 manifold which shares two central sections.

[rockrockmcrock]

ferny wrote:

Yes, he's sure. Like I said in posts further up, the 1300 and 1500 are eight port heads and it's only the 1500 manifold which shares two central sections.

Not doubting you any more - but look at the workshop diagrams above, they do contradict what you just said.

Also I've just been onto Rimmer again and they almost refused to believe it - eventually the guy said it could be a "1500 USA head but otherwise it should have a single central port....". How can these guys have been issuing parts for so long without noticing they are identifying the heads wrongly - JP similarly told me "single central port in the head = 1500, double = 1300"

[drofgum]

rockrockmcrock,
That wide single port gasket matches the manifold, not the head. There is no point to dividing the port on the gasket where the manifold has no metal.
                                                                                       Cheers,
                                                                                       Paul

[rockrockmcrock]

1317 wrote:

rockrockmcrock,
That wide single port gasket matches the manifold, not the head. There is no point to dividing the port on the gasket where the manifold has no metal.
                                                                                       Cheers,
                                                                                       Paul

No mate - I do get what you mean, but that's not what the workshop diagrams show - look again more closely at them. They show both the gasket and the head with a single or double port. Similarly, Rimmer, JP and Canley all say the head and the gasket have double or single ports.

[thebrookster]

Both heads are essentially the same, the only real difference is the height of the head from the face.

I can see what you mean re the centre ports rockrockmcrock, however I can assure you from my experience that the 1500 head still have the centre ports as discrete units!! If you want this confirming elsewhere try ringing Dave at Canley's!

Cheers

Phil

[Richard B]

10126 wrote:

From memory this is a 1300 head with 2 x small exit ports in the centre, rather than the 1x bigger one of the 1500 (the other 2 exhaust ports and 2 inlet ports are identical between versions if I remember rightly). I don't have head number to hand, but the above exit ports is a positive id one way or another I think - I presume this is what you mean by twinned although I was under the impression that the 1500 manifold was also of a single bore at the centre port?

Think you are getting a bit confused. 1300 & 1500 heads have the same inlet/exhaust ( 8 ) port configuration. Just that the 1500 Spitfire exhaust manifold has one large centrol orifice that overlaps both middle exhaust ports.

ah  Phil beat me to it  ;D

[Richard B]

10126 wrote:

They show both the gasket and the head with a single or double port. Similarly, Rimmer, JP and Canley all say the head and the gasket have double or single ports.

Yes the drawing is wrong. If you found a picture of the head in the same manual I expect that it would show 8 ports.

Is it the Mini A series that has a siamised head? Triumph had siamised inlets on the 948 & 1147 engines. 1300 & 1500 went to 8 port.

[rockrockmcrock]

Richard_B wrote:

Yes the drawing is wrong. If you found a picture of the head in the same manual I expect that it would show 8 ports.

Is it the Mini A series that has a siamised head? Triumph had siamised inlets on the 948 & 1147 engines. 1300 & 1500 went to 8 port.

All the diagrams I have of the head including the ones in the original workshop manual (i.e. BL's own late version manual) show a single port in the head for a 1500. I've just checked with Rimmer and both their parts catalogue and their copy of the workshop manuals for Triumph show the same thing....with one exception which is for a late USA spec Spitfire with emission control.

So it seems BL reproduced it wrongly in all their workshop diagrams - unless someone out there has a diagram for a Europe spec 1500 spit that contradicts this?

[ferny]

Morris minor a series as well - all a series?

You probably just found out why people use RB at first then move to other suppliers. :)
Lots of them use the workshop diagrams, but not all of them have hands on experience.

[HMaze]

B-series also.

Yes rockrockmcrock, you are right.
The parts catalogs show it wrong.
There are lots of small and big errors is those drawings.
They are nice to look at, but don't trust them in every details.
The people that made those drawings probably only ever saw a few parts.
For example the alternator in the 1500 parts catalog: no one could mount it in the way it is shown in the drawing.

Harry

[rockrockmcrock]

ferny wrote:

Morris minor a series as well - all a series?

You probably just found out why people use RB at first then move to other suppliers. :)
Lots of them use the workshop diagrams, but not all of them have hands on experience.

Personally in 20+ years of Triumph ownership I've never used RB - too expensive. They do have unrivalled access to workshop manual diagrams and original part numbers - mercinary I know but this is what I use them for ;)

Not been on the scene for about 7yrs but the guys I used to use heavily were:
Jigsaw Racing
James Paddock
Canley Classics
Spitfire Graveyard
Totally Triumph
and occasionally SpitBitz (just because I lived near them, unless you turned up in person they were a little dodgy TBH)

I know Canley and JP are still around, but not sure if any of the others still are

[ferny]

Out of those listed I only ever use two - Canley and James paddock. Rarebits4classics is another excellent trader who also does some shows. And two others I'd not touch with a barge pole from what they've done to friends! I won't state in a thread who or why. Recommended the good ones from personal experience is the more polite thing to do.

[Dannyb]

I have 2 x 1500 engines both with 1500 heads and both heads have two single exhaust ports in the middle.

[rockrockmcrock]

ferny wrote:

And two others I'd not touch with a barge pole from what they've done to friends! I won't state in a thread who or why. Recommended the good ones from personal experience is the more polite thing to do.

Agreed - however, coming back into the game after 7 years raising kids I'd appreciate a heads up if you feel you could PM me - I used to be very plugged in with traders, but I'm feeling like a newbie all over again now!

1684 wrote:

I have 2 x 1500 engines both with 1500 heads and both heads have two single exhaust ports in the middle.

Thanks mate, that confirms that the workshop manual diagrams etc are incorrect - since the early 1990's I thought I owned a 1300, but in fact I own a MKIV 1500 - I know this doesn't sound like much of  a revelation but, seriously, this was my first car so it actually has hit me quite hard (in a good way)!