Tim Bancroft Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 As part of my celebrations upon owning my GT6 for 25 years, I am fitting a Phoenix 6>3>1 stainless steel exhaust system to the car. I have trial fitted the manifold and all seems good. After the trials and tribulations that I have had with the one on my 2.5 I must say I am pleasantly surprised.Anyrate, I know that some have problems getting a gas tight seal on the joints between the 3 pipes and the collector pipe. Anyone got any suggestions for a good exhaust paste or other ideas?Thanks in advance for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 pete lewis used something that lasted a while, bloseal??Have you seen the mods done by nick jones etc? welding nuts on and slotting to make a simple but tight clamp affair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 GunGum Paste?http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_164997_langId_-1_categoryId_165625(Also Screwfix)John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferny Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 The only thing I've found to be any good is Holts Firegum - not Gum Gum or anything else. All other stuff I've used has burnt through. The Firegum expands when hot and is meant to be self-sealing, although it does go brittle eventually. I spent ages getting the manifold to downpipe join to seal and in the end that's the only stuff which worked. It's only just started to leak slightly again. Whereas before it'd last 20-100mile this time it's lasted about 7k+ - including the RBRR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 make sure you use decent clamps - none of the crappy ones with U bolts. Why does any body use them?!Decent mikalor - surprisingly cheap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Bancroft Posted December 7, 2008 Author Share Posted December 7, 2008 I am using Mikalor clamps, marvellous as they do not distort the pipe, therefore making it easy to pull apart the joints.I have used 'Firegum' and found it ok, just wondered if there may be a better paste available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
99176 Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 Unless you do the Nick Jones' dodge I guarentee it will blow.I haven't and it does. Join the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Bancroft Posted December 7, 2008 Author Share Posted December 7, 2008 Surely it would'nt be beyond the wit of the manufactuers to make the collector pipes so that they will not blow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 http://club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum10/Blah.pl/Blah.pl?m-1211529630/link to the nick jones fix.I still use STP Bloseal as i have a full carteide and it works well but pricey.had to copy Nicks slot and wel nut idea to stop the blasted thing leakinghope it doesnt cause stress in the tubes at they need to move around with varying expansions. but it works so far,, some have wrapped the tubes and that cuts down the detonation ringing you get with stainless tubes Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Bancroft Posted December 7, 2008 Author Share Posted December 7, 2008 Thanks Pete, for posting that prev. thread. I cannot weld so a bit stuck, looked at STP Bloseal, however stockists seem to only sell in packs of 12 at £40ish-cannot afford that!!! Will try my local auto factor and also pop into my local exhaust shop-might have a good product? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieB Posted December 7, 2008 Share Posted December 7, 2008 I bought some Bloseal off ebay, seems to do a good job.The seller isn't there anymore but a quick google reveals:http://www.kenwaycom.co.uk/sealantsandadhesives.html(near the bottom) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 Tim tried to get the tssc shop to buy a pack and split it but no luck so far.trouble is there is not the clearance for a band clamp either guess if its on a racer it doesnt matter but it ruins the six on song when out on the open road,, like driving a beat up moggie minor (not ferny's) with a hole in the down pipe ,, I sure the poorly designed slip joint is to allow the pipes some expansion freedom , on trucks we inserted a spring ring like a piston ring to seal slip joints but no room down here for that as the 3-1 is a small assy. can you take it to a local welder to tack on some nuts or similar.. you can see the positions of the lower 2 pipes its access to the top 3rd thats a bit tight to access just use 5/16 nuts and drill them out too take a 1/4 bolt and nut prarp prarp brrmm bmpah vrrm pop bang Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Bancroft Posted December 8, 2008 Author Share Posted December 8, 2008 Been thinking, I will as you suggest and take the collector to my local welder man, of course I will mark the pipes up beforehand.This in conjunction with the bloseal (Ordered some via Kenway-as suggested by Charlie B-Ta) I hope this will work.Moordales fitted the 6>3>1 system to my saloon-not sure what they did. The system has always been gastight, just bangs about!Great all this eh!!Thanks everyone for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 99176 wrote:Unless you do the Nick Jones' dodge I guarentee it will blow.I haven't and it does. Join the club.This is true unfortunately. I've used high temp silicone (not high temp enough) and several different ceramic based sealants. None lasted more than 1000 miles. Not only does it sound bad (especially when cold) but the possible air-leak that it causes has the potential to cock up the O2 readings from the sensor just downstream - which was my main motivation for doing something about it.The revising clamping method does seem to have done the trick (over 4k miles now). Another thing that helped mine was an additional (solid) bracket to the gearbox to reduce flexing forces on the joint.If your 6-3-1 misses the steering column and the inlet mainfold it's already better than mine in two important ways. Least satisfactory (high value) purchase I have made unfortunately.Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 Nick has good reason to seek a good seal (EFI) but for others?There are rotational loads and longitudinal loads on this joint - a circumferential clamp does little to help hold either. Observe that many bike manifolds are jointed to the downpipe by a slip joint. This is usually held together by strong springs!Rather than fit these, I have welded 'u-brackets' of thick wire to either side of each of the three joints where the three seconaries joint the collector, and wiredeach across the joint. They still slip in response to rotational loads (engine moving under torque or cornering), but the wiring holds the joints together in response to longitudinal loading (Acceleration/breaking and bumps) so they can't slip out of joint.John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Bancroft Posted December 8, 2008 Author Share Posted December 8, 2008 John,That does sound a good idea, seen it on a few single seat race cars. At pres. I will try Nick's method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT6boy Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 I took my Phoenix to the local (decent) exhaust specialists and told them where to weld the captive nuts. They also flared the male primary a little as there was nearly 1mm clearnce between the primary pipe and collector unit :(! No sealents ever worked prior to the above, now much quieter with Nick's mod: but would love it if it was a proper seal and fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted December 8, 2008 Share Posted December 8, 2008 John and Bruce make excellent points here.There is actually nothing wrong with slip joints if sufficiently close fitting and far enough engaged. Under those conditions they can move without significant leakage or danger of coming apart. The trouble is that the manifolds we are all beefing about here are often not sufficiently close fitting to form a decent seal, although the depth of engagement is not bad. As the design is intended to (and does!) flex and move, any non-flexible sealant is bound to fail. By fitting the pinch bolts I have attempted (with some success) to render the joint non-flexible so a conventional ceramic sealant that can take the heat stands a chance of lasting. This makes it important to provide further support. A down side to all this is that by removing the flexibilty, the forces that the rest of the manifold has to withstand must go up. This will probably lead to cracks eventually. Time will tell. A proper flexi-joint of some kind after the collector might help a bit.....?There are times when it irritates me almost enough to return to a cast manifold...... hmmm - maybe with a small turbocharger attached :PNick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJM Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Try Manganesite, listed as being available from www.humbermerchants.co.uk and used for pipe sealing.This stuff will withstand an atomic bomb, not that I have verified that of course but we used to use it for temporary repairs of wire drawing across flange faces etc. I see no reason why it shouldn't be suitable for exhaust systems unless anyone knows any different of course.It has the consistency of playdoh and would need to be smeared around the "male" before carefully inserting the pipework.We had a ceremonial handing over of the tim whenever a crew member left as it was worth its weight in gold and got us out of many tight corners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 "Manganesite", PMJ? Interesting!But please explain "wire drawing across flange faces".It would help to understand the job it has done before, to trust it for something else.So far, I'm not at all sure! The only reference I can find is to rebuilding a stationary steam engine.See: http://www.oneguyfrombarlick.co.uk/ltp/SGMEMOIR2002/BUILDING%20THE%20WHITELEES%20ENGINE.htm"I decided to make new studs and make the threads that went into the cylinder slightly oversize. I was making all new nuts so the outboard end could be standard Whitworth thread. These were fitted and bedded in Manganesite. This is a very old jointing compound made out of double boiled linseed oil and manganese dioxide powder. It is black and sticky and when raised to steam temperature it bakes hard and sets like cement." Note, "make new nuts" and "Whitworth thread"!Sounds more like something for Fred Dibnah!John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJM Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 Fred Dibnah would have had this stuff for breakfast. Wire drawing occurs when a steam leak errodes the flange faces across a pipe or valve joint and leaves a pit or groove so the sealing faces are no longer flush. For Tim it would seal all those minor gaps and once set is impervious. However if it needed to come apart a good bash would dislodge it. Clean it all up, recoat and off you go again. Great stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 there's a lot available in china !!! need to refine the search a bit Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 PJM wrote:Fred Dibnah would have had this stuff for breakfast. Wire drawing occurs when a steam leak errodes the flange faces across a pipe or valve joint and leaves a pit or groove so the sealing faces are no longer flush. For Tim it would seal all those minor gaps and once set is impervious. However if it needed to come apart a good bash would dislodge it. Clean it all up, recoat and off you go again. Great stuff.So kind of like when you leave an exhaust blowing for too long it eats away at wherever its blowing through... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted December 10, 2008 Share Posted December 10, 2008 PJM wrote:Wire drawing occurs when a steam leak erodes the flange faces across a pipe or valve joint and leaves a pit or groove so the sealing faces are no longer flush. Ah,so! Does it mean that you place a piece of wire in the groove to help fill it?Sorry about 20 questions, but I'm fascinated by techniques.John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted December 11, 2008 Share Posted December 11, 2008 gas leak across the flanges.....reminds me of a good curry Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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