Brake caliper upgrade?

[glang]

It looks like later TR6 brake calipers (14pbm?) use diiferent pads from the standard type 14s used on many other small chassis cars so are they a possible upgrade for these vehicles?

[Davemate]

I wouldn't class a TR6 as a "small chassis car" I would have thought the compleat drive train would be more like the 2000/2500 saloon spec

[glang]

no sorry I meant using late model TR6 calipers on small chassis cars like GT6 and Vitesse which I believe as standard have the same 14 calipers as the early TR6s.....

[JumpingFrog]

Quoted from glang

no sorry I meant using late model TR6 calipers on small chassis cars like GT6 and Vitesse which I believe as standard have the same 14 calipers as the early TR6s.....

I think you mean Type 16 calipers. The PBM ones can be used IIRC, but as they are metric you need special bolts.

See:
Sorry , link no longer available

[glang]

another mistake! Im having a bad day today....
Just wondered if theres any advantage in having the later type 16 calipers as there is a difference in the respective pads:

[GT6 M]

bottom pad is actually better for even wear rate
as laaler inner area goes where,t slower mov,n disc is

Butt, top pad es,a gas vent slot init


M

[glang]

Dont you think theres more friction area on the later TR6 pad so giving improved braking M? I know it seems easier to find mintex 1144 pads for these...

[JohnD]

Friction is a slippery subject!

The force resisting motion (due to friction) depends on the coefficient of friction for those surfaces, and the force squeezing them together.  You'll note, no mention of surface area!

If that force is your foot on the brake pedal, assume its constant.    Now vary the surface area of the pads.    If they are smaller, the squeezing force, per square inch, is greater if your foot exerts the same pressure.   And the other way around, bigger pad, less force.   The friction of pad on disc stays the same.

John

[glang]

I see what your saying John so possibly when Triumph changed the TR6 calipers they may have also changed some other brake system components to benefit from the larger pad area.
However it would be interesting to see what effect it would have putting the later calipers on a Vitesse for example and I wonder if anyone has done it....

[Pete Lewis]

2 ltr vitesss and gt6 all use a type 16 or 16pb caliper  you cant fit 16 to a car  with type 14 as the mounting bolt centres are a tad different  you need the caliper mount to match, and they are hard to find

1600 used type12 and any upgrade is worthwhile

from memory the master cyl was 5/8" on type 14  and 0.7 of type 16  with or without servo.

[1968Vitesse25]

There is a rare big pad Type 16 calipers as fitted to the 2.8 Granada. Roughly twice the pad area.
Almost unobtanium now as Granadas were the car of choice for banger racers.

[JohnD]

I refer the Honourable Member to my previous answer.
Confession time,  SofS has four pots and pads twice-ish as big, but I fitted them when I was young and foolish.
MUCH more important were the vented discs (Ford Capri 2.8i) which abolished fade, in race or down mountain  passes.

John

[glang]

Quoted from 1968Vitesse25

There is a rare big pad Type 16 calipers as fitted to the 2.8 Granada. Roughly twice the pad area.
Almost unobtanium now as Granadas were the car of choice for banger racers.

Thanks, this must be what was fitted to the last TR6s although looking at the pics I posted dont know if pads are quite twice as big....

[1968Vitesse25]

the M16B pads



A popular upgrade on RS2000 rally cars.

[Gt6s]

Nothing wrong at all with the 16 caliper. Bar the weight. I use them with a vented spacer kit with vented 11 1/4 in Citroen discs.

Serious stopping.

Laurence

[1968Vitesse25]

Bigger diameter = more leverage = more stopping power.

[glang]

The other advantage of these later calipers seems to be much better availability of M1144 pads. These and ones for type 14 calipers are widely sold but
type 16 are much harder to find and probably, as a consequence, pricier

[Andy Flexney]

do you really think the highly paid engineers at Triumph got it wrong?

I would suggest there is little to gain by changing brake disc or pad size. Pad material might be different and moving to a fast road material might improve your brakes partially. However, if your tyres are not up to it then there is no point?

If your standard brakes are set up correctly you should be able to bloke all 4 wheels. If not then either your tyres are not standard or your brakes are not set up correctly. If you are using larger/sticker tyres be aware of the wheel bearing as they are not designed for these and they need checking regularly. Good wheel bearings cost up to £100 and if you are having to change these several times a year then there is no saving in buying cheaper pads.

My experience is that Triumph did a pretty good job of designing cars and we amateurs usually don't do a better job.

Andy

P.S. Mintex M1144 pads are readily available.

[glang]

hmmm I wouldnt mind a bit better braking and Ive done everything to the standard set up that I can think of and now wonder if my legs are a bit weak and I need a servo
Where do you get your pads drom Andy cos not even the Mintex site lists em for Vitesse/GT6....  

[1968Vitesse25]

Quoted from Andy Flexney

do you really think the highly paid engineers at Triumph got it wrong

P.S. Mintex M1144 pads are readily available.

Yes, they were always budget constrained.

Quoted from Andy Flexney

I would suggest there is little to gain by changing brake disc or pad size. Pad material might be different and moving to a fast road material might improve your brakes partially. However, if your tyres are not up to it then there is no point?

Triumph were constantly upgrading the brakes of their small cars. The Dolomite Sprint came with brakes that were terminally underspecced.

Quoted from Andy Flexney

d
If your standard brakes are set up correctly you should be able to bloke all 4 wheels. If not then either your tyres are not standard or your brakes are not set up correctly. If you are using larger/sticker tyres be aware of the wheel bearing as they are not designed for these and they need checking regularly. Good wheel bearings cost up to £100 and if you are having to change these several times a year then there is no saving in buying cheaper pads.
.

If you are nocking out a couple of sets of wheel bearings a year, its nothing to do with your brakes.

Quoted from Andy Flexney

d
My experience is that Triumph did a pretty good job of designing cars and we amateurs usually don't do a better job.
.

They did the best they could with the non existent budget and severe parts bin constraints they had, but all the old engineers freely admitted, they could have done far better if they were allowed to spend some money.

[Andy Flexney]

Quoted from 1968Vitesse25

If you are nocking out a couple of sets of wheel bearings a year, its nothing to do with your brakes.

1968Vitesse25,

you obviously missed the point, which tells me you are only looking at one small piece of the jigsaw and not the whole.

If you put on better brakes you will need to put on better (wider, stickier) tyres to get that braking power onto the road. By putting on bigger tyres you are straining the already weak suspension mountings and wheel bearings even more and therefore you will need to replace them more often.

Perhaps the Triumph TR brakes are superior to the small chassis Triumphs but I doubt it. The TR brakes will out brake the tyres and the chassis without any problem. So really before you go putting on super brakes for a road car you should start by strengthening the chassis and suspension mountings so they can take the strain of better brakes and stickier tyres.

Andy

[glang]

Alright Andy I dont want to constantly knock out wheel bearings or rip off my suspension mountings when braking so I promise I wont change my calipers but where do you get your pads from?

[Clive]

The type 16 pads are mgb633 from memory. Meant for the metric callipers, so will need holes drilling g out a touch for imperial versions of the type 16.

Should be common, used on lots of fords etc.

[glang]

thanks Clive, mgb525 looks much more similar to the Vitesse/GT6 type 16 while I think the one you mention fits the very late TR6 and as you say loads of Fords. Its a bit confusing when even the Mintex site doesnt explain it....

[thescrapman]

Quoted from Andy Flexney

do you really think the highly paid engineers at Triumph got it wrong?

.

Andy

Rather than get it wrong, Triumph just didn't get it right on 2 occasions that I can think of, Dolomite Sprints have already been mentioned (thank you Trackerjack for your efforts in this respect) and the other is the Type 12 calipers on earlier 60's cars, soon replaced with the more than adequate Type 14's

The other aspect is that modern pads can be of shite (that is a technical term) quality, so a known quantity / quality (1144's etc) are a good solution, though get classed as an upgrade.

I have struggled with 2 Heralds with utterly rubbish brakes this year. First was cured by fitting new discs and pads from a reputable supplier. They now do not scare the crap out of me. The pads that came off were "new" ones that came with 2 recon calipers and the discs were clean and flat.

The other Herald has Type 16 calipers due to it's Vitesse sourced suspension. They too were rubbish. Fitted a set of Greenstuff pads and instantly there is bite there. It had new discs already, the pads just seemed to be made of cardboard or something. A few more miles of bedding in and they will feel reliable I reckon.

Cheers

Colin

p.s. Good to see you have put in an appearance again.