Stu 1986 Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Hello Chaps! I need a new Master Cylinder for the brakes on my Herald. As I fitted the Vitesse engine I fitted the Vitesse brakes, but then tried to be clever by fitting a servo assisted dual circuit braking system using the master cylinder from a Rover 100 which is a combined servo & cylinder unit. It looked well and worked to some degree but it hasn't worked as well as hoped and I am going to revert back to the standard Vitesse set up. Now I know 2 Litre cars had a bigger master than the others, so I've been looking about on eBay to see whats out there. I've seen a few places selling various things but which one would be best to go for? This guy promotes his master cylinders as being better than standard with all sorts of guarantees and insurances from Lloyd's of London: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MASTER-CYLINDER-Triumph-Vitesse-Clutch-Brake-UPRATED-/390265232799?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item5add9edd9fThis One has a plastic cylinder body and says it's 7 bore: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIUMPH-GT6-Vitesse-2-0-BRAKE-MASTER-CYLINDER-ASSEMBLY-/221716516900?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item339f559024This one also says it's 7 bore but has a metal body: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TRIUMPH-VITESSE-BRAKE-MASTER-CYLINDER-7-BORE-/151220872204?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item233577640cPrice isn't really an issue here as I believe more and more these days "Buy Cheap, Buy Twice" which was something my Granddad used to say frequently. Also you can't really mess about when it comes to brakes. Any Advice is much appreciated. Stu. 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heraldcoupe Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 First of all, which Vitesse brakes did you fit? The Vitesse 6 brakes have type 12 calipers on Herald discs together with 8" rear drums, so only the rears could be considered an upgrade.The 2L cars maintained the 8" rear drums, but upgraded to larger front discs with type 16 calipers, so a genuine upgrade.Next, beware of master cylinders with a small reservoir, they are not intended for disc brake applications. There's nothing wrong with them in terms of hydraulic operation, but consider how a disc brake system self adjusts. As the pads wear, the caliper's rest position moves further along the bore. This in turn means more fluid is held in the caliper, so the level in the reservoir drops. In a standard cylinder with the large reservoir, the fluid level under all conditions will sit between the max and min marks - theoretically at max with new pads fitted, min when they're worn down and approaching replacement. Considering the above, if you have a master cylinder with a small reservoir, as your pads wear, your fluid will drop below the minimum mark, the cylinder would potentially be emptied through the life of a set of pads. So you top up the master cylinder as part of regular maintenance. When you next change your pads, you need to drain away some of that excess fluid, or eject it over the top of your bulkhead when you wind back your caliper pistons.Not a problem with a well maintained car, but I don't see it as a corner that's worth cutting.While the genuine Vitesse master cylinders all came with a fatter cylinder reservoir, the late Heralds took the short master cylinder used for the clutch, and also for the brakes on drum-braked cars, and added a plastic extension. Though they're rarely sold in the Triumph trade, there are plenty on ebay and elsewhere - here's one found at random:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/151627220212?limghlpsr=true&hlpv=2&ops=true&viphx=1&hlpht=true&lpid=108&chn=ps&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0-L&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=108&ff19=0As regards the 0.7" bore question, a larger bore means more effort but shorter pedal travel, smaller bore means less effort but longer travel. This was the specified bore for the Vitesse 2L brakes and works well - the type 16 calipers move more fluid than the type 12 or 14s of the Herald, so the 0.7" will have been chosen by the designers with this in mind. So we come back to which calipers you have...Cheers,Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu 1986 Posted March 28, 2015 Author Share Posted March 28, 2015 Hi Bill, thanks for your response. To answer your question I have Vitesse Discs & Callipers which are 16 PB Imperial. They are brand new from Canleys. The rear drums are Vitesse MK2 ones also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heraldcoupe Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 In that case the 0.7" bore would be the best approach. None of the cylinders in your ebay searches is technically correct as they have their cylinders at 90 degrees to the body, the original designs were angled so the body was sited vertically. Not that they won't work, just consider them as an aftermarket alternative with all that entails.In recent years the cylinders with a seperate plastic body have gained a reputation for leaking. I don't know why, but I see repeated reports of fluid weeping at the seam between the reservoir and the cylinder body. Keep this in mind of you go for this option,Cheers,Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 As Bill says, the factory choice for the 2L brakes was 0.7" (11/16) bore. The original cylinders would have had the larger reservoir cast in at an angle to make it horizontal when mounted to the car. These are fairly hard to find these days. I think Paddocks had some a while back but quite pricey.I've always had problems with needing very high pedal pressures on mine so I've fitted a 5/8" M/C which reduces the effort needed a bit at the expense of slightly longer pedal travel (becomes more evident when the back brakes need adjusting. This one has the bolt-on plastic cylinder which doesn't leak.I'm still not completely happy with it and I'm wondering whether to return to a 0.7" cylinder and add a remote servo. The other option I'd considered was exactly was you have already done with the Rover 100 parts. What problems have you had with that? Any pics?CheersNick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu 1986 Posted March 28, 2015 Author Share Posted March 28, 2015 Nick_Jones wrote:The other option I'd considered was exactly was you have already done with the Rover 100 parts. What problems have you had with that? Any pics?It will involve you cutting a dirty big hole in your bulkhead for it to fit through as the pedal is connected directly to the bottom of the servo & cylinder. The metro brake pedal will need reshaping and adjusting which I had done at a blacksmith's. You will need to change your brake lines around to allow for dual circuit operation, and factor in it has ballast adjusters as part of the system which you will need to site also. You will need to add some sort of support to the top of the cylinder to stop it moving as you hit the pedal. It was a good idea in theory, but what it has actually created (at least in my case) is a messed up bulkhead, a messy appearance as there is a jumble of pipes on the bulkhead and many hours lost time trying to get it to work. Once I got it to work, the pedal travelled too far and the vacuum it took seemed to have a negative effect on the engine. So I'm going back to standard, but whereas the rear brakes would cross over at the rear axle this will happen on the bulkhead now, and I'll have to have new metal welded in to replace the hole for the servo. Here is one of the few photos I have of it. Sadly it's a bit shaky and out of focus but I took it on a camera phone back when the quality wasn't as good as today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glang Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Hi Stu,As Ive indicated in other posts Ive just changed by Mk1 Vit brake master cylinder to a 0.75 bore. They are used for the clutch in the original Landrover so easily available at very good prices but do come with the small reservoir and subsequently the accompanying problems that Bill has mentioned above. I'm very pleased with it and for me its now the perfect set up however I am a regular cyclist and have a fair bit of leg strength so maybe for others the ideal arrangement would be the same but with a larger reservoir and remote servo. This would then have both short pedal travel and reduced effort! Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin M Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Hi, after being unhappy with the Tandem brake master, since yesterday I do have a new brake setup in the GT6 with 0.7 master (single line) and a brake servo. It works very well. It´s definitely an upgrade. Pedal effort reduced and a very good braking power with 1144 Mintex at the front and original Girling shoes at the rear. Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willows40 Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Don't forget with going from tandem to single line brakes you need to get a lot higher handbrake reading on brake test at mot, think it's 15% for tandem 25% for single. On a lot of older cars this is a common failCheers Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 willows40 wrote:Don't forget with going from tandem to single line brakes you need to get a lot higher handbrake reading on brake test at mot, think it's 15% for tandem 25% for single. On a lot of older cars this is a common failCheers Andy This is true - though "situation normal" for a Vitesse. Sometimes tempted to convert to dual circuit brakes just to reduce the handbrake hassle at MoT time.......I quite like the 0.75" + servo idea though.Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Or, fit a hydraulic handbrake. AS that line goes to the rear, easy-peasy.If you leave the handbrake cables in place, the MoT man can't tell if you have a 'secondary braking system' or not and can't fail you.John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin M Posted April 16, 2015 Share Posted April 16, 2015 Handbrake not an issue with TÃœV in Germany :)No different regulation. The GT6 had at last TÃœV in October 170 daN at the front and 160 daN at the rear. The handbrake produced 120 daN. New old stock shoes at the rear much much better than the stuff currently sold.Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu 1986 Posted April 19, 2015 Author Share Posted April 19, 2015 Well today I tidied up the bulkhead and fitted the new master cylinder, and begun tiding up the brake pipes. I had a few other jobs to do first so ran out of daylight with the front pipes left to do. It's looking good though, I'm pleased I've gone standard again. That Metro unit had a fault anyway it seems as it had leaked all it's fluid all over the carpets, which also meant I had to get handy with the cleaner and paint brush! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony68 Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 heraldcoupe wrote:Next, beware of master cylinders with a small reservoir, they are not intended for disc brake applications. There's nothing wrong with them in terms of hydraulic operation, but consider how a disc brake system self adjusts. As the pads wear, the caliper's rest position moves further along the bore. This in turn means more fluid is held in the caliper, so the level in the reservoir drops. In a standard cylinder with the large reservoir, the fluid level under all conditions will sit between the max and min marks - theoretically at max with new pads fitted, min when they're worn down and approaching replacement. Cheers,Bill.I fitted transparent plastic extensions to both master cylinders on mine, which not only increase capacity but allow me to see how much fluid is in there! I had to use plumbing tape (the thin white stuff) to get a good seal to the old metal. I got them from a car show a long time ago, so can't remember the source, but it wasn't a Triumph specialist - May have been Dave Gleed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony68 Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 1953 wrote:It was a good idea in theory, but what it has actually created (at least in my case) is a messed up bulkhead, a messy appearance as there is a jumble of pipes on the bulkhead and many hours lost time trying to get it to work. Once I got it to work, the pedal travelled too far and the vacuum it took seemed to have a negative effect on the engine. I just fitted a small remote servo to mine, on the passenger front bulkhead next to the dizzy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paudman Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 10402 wrote:I fitted transparent plastic extensions to both master cylinders on mine, which not only increase capacity but allow me to see how much fluid is in there! I had to use plumbing tape (the thin white stuff) to get a good seal to the old metal. I got them from a car show a long time ago, so can't remember the source, but it wasn't a Triumph specialist - May have been Dave Gleed?They come up on auction sites occasionally, or at auto jumbles; they were originally Triumph’s solution to the fluid problem when cars were first fitted with discs. Make sure you get the metal fitting ring with them; essentially a reservoir cap with a hole in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herald948 Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Here in the US, there's at least one vendor who sells new reservoir extensions -- Pegasus Racing:https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=1114Meanwhile, at least in North America, earlier Spitfires and Herald with factory disc brake installations used the same 5/8" master cylinder but with a taller reservoir casting. I don't believe anyone makes or reproduces that particular body nowadays, which is a shame, IMO.I suspect the plastic extensions might have come about more as a way to comply with some safety standards in various countries, standards requiring that the fluid level be visible without removing the cap?Attached is a picture showing that taller cast reservoir cylinder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casper Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Demon Tweeks at a price !http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Product.do?method=view&n=1717&p=172670&c=215&utm_source=Google&utm_medium=Base&utm_campaign=Brake%20Master%20Cylinders%20&%20Reservoirs&gclid=CICT5uOwisUCFcrpwgodcgQApQC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paudman Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 Oh mon Joo.. that’s expensive…. but of course, not if you need one and don’t have one… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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