Vitesse - Wrong Engine

[Swifty75]

Hi All

I was finally getting down to doing some fettling of the Vitesse, I have owned it for 3 months now. The car has SU's and also the triumph 2000 inlet manifold (did not know this when I bought it). I thought I better check the engine number, I was not surprised when it turns out to start "ME", meaning that it is a triumph 2000 engine (was secretly hoping it was going to be a 2500). This engine does not have the same figures/is not as strong as the Vitesse engine. It does run well though which I suppose is the main thing.

I feel a bit disappointed in this. Does anyone know of any benefit to having this engine so as I can look at it as though my glass is half full? I suppose I should have checked this when I bought it! (I would have bought it anyway)

Thanks Neil

[oil_on_the_carpet]

In real terms there is little in it between the two engines.

[Nick Jones]

After all the time that has passed, the prefix letters on the block are not a very good indicator of the specification of the engine.  All of the "mk 2" 2000 and 2.5 engines have very similar blocks which are interchangeable and it's not uncommon for the more plentiful 2000 blocks to be used if the original is badly damaged (typically by thrust washers falling out).

That said, the presence of the saloon manifold as well does suggest that a complete engine has been swapped over.  Worth checking whether the correct sump is fitted.  A Vitesse sump has a dink above the steering rack and will have a level bottom  - a saloon sump has no dink and the bottom will appear slightly angled when sat in a Vitesse.  The other indicator is the front plate, behind the timing chain cover.  The saloons have the engine mount positions formed as part of this and you may find that these have been cut off rather than the correct one fitted.  Neither of the above are show-stoppers, just gives an indication.  The engine backplate and flywheel will have had to be changed to get it to fit a Vitesse gearbox (unless a saloon gearbox has been fitted, which is not very likely as it's not especially easy).

A proper "HC" Vitesse engine does have a bit more zing that the equivalent 2000 due to higher compression and sportier cam but this is more apparent up the rev range and won't be that noticeable unless you use the car fairly hard.

I'm afraid I can't really think of any particular advantages to having the ME engine fitted except that it probably has the deeper head and domed pistons so could be converted to 2.5 by just changing the crank and pistons.  On the flip side, there aren't really any major downsides either - better a sweet-running ME than a rattly, smoky old nail of an HC!

Nick

[Mark Hammond]

What he said.

Mark

[Swifty75]

Cheers guys - feel better about that now.

Hope the engine is still good come next October as it is doing the RBRR!

[nicmk1est]

you got 10months to find out if engineis any good,,get out and drive it

[MrSpeedy]

My tweaked engine in the Vitesse is an ME series. I understood the head to have better flowing ports, but otherwise little else different.

That said, I decked the block, fitted flat top pistons and planed the head to bring the CR to around 9.5:1 along with a lumpy cam a dn additional head work.

So, basically just treated it all as base castings to work with!

Sorry, that's probably not much help is it ?! 🤔

[Swifty75]

Hi All

I have another issue that I think is related to this.

My speedo under reads by around 10%, I also checked the mileage and this under reads. The speedo is an 1152. The gearbox has a synchromesh on 1st gear and I am pretty sure that Vitesse's did not. I also think that when I changed the clutch it was a pain to get back in, I had to modify the transmission tunnel as it was slightly too long (must have been put in together with the engine before). I believe Triumph 2000's had a synchromesh on first gear. I think I have a triumph 2000 gearbox also and that they usually link up with a 1000 speedo meaning that mine under reads.

Could any of you with greater Triumph knowledge than me confirm that I am maybe thinking along the correct lines?

Thanks Neil

[Nick Jones]

Vitesse 2L and Mk2 had 4 synchro gearboxes as standard.  Only the 1600 did not.

It could still be that the gearbox, or part of it, have come from something else as they do tend to need rebuilt fairly often.  

It could also be that someone has fitted a 3.63 diff which would alter the readings by about 7%.

Finally, what tyres are fitted?  Originally they would have had 155/80 13.  175/70 13 give very close to the same result but others won't.

Nick

[Swifty75]

Hi

Thanks Nick

I will check the Diff. The tyres are now 175/70/13, so as close as can be.

I am not sure about the Diff as the gearing seems about right for a 2000. With Sat Nav reading 50mph (speedo 44mph) the engine is doing 2000 RPM in top OD. This fits with 25mph per 1000 RPM.

Neil

[Nick Jones]

I think you will find this site utility useful (thanks once again James!)

http://www.mintylamb.co.uk/gearspeed/

According to this, a standard Vitesse on 175/70 tyres should be doing 43.3mph @ 2000 rpm.  A 3.63 diff would give 46.4 mph and a 3.27 diff would give 51.5 mph.

I'd be a bit surprised if you had a 3.27 diff though as it gives a noticeably high 1st gear - though if your engine is in fact a 2.5.......

Nick

[RobPearce]

Quoted from Neil Swift

I am not sure about the Diff as the gearing seems about right for a 2000. With Sat Nav reading 50mph (speedo 44mph) the engine is doing 2000 RPM in top OD. This fits with 25mph per 1000 RPM.

That gearing is wrong. A standard 2L Vitesse in OD top would be 21mph/1000RPM, so at 2000RPM you'd be doing 42. That sounds to me like the speedo is the right one for the gearbox and the original diff, but you've got a non-standard diff on there. That said, 25-per-thousand is not one of the available diff ratios for the range. But, a 3.63 diff coupled with a slightly pessimistic tacho would explain it.

[Swifty75]

Right - the plot tickens!

I have been under the car and it is a KC differential. This is the 3.27 differential. Which cars were the 3.27 originally fitted? I am trying to work out what I have.

At present I have an ME block and a KC diff. This sounds more like a triumph 2000 set up?

Thanks all!

[garyf]

Quoted from Neil Swift

Right - the plot tickens!

I have been under the car and it is a KC differential. This is the 3.27 differential. Which cars were the 3.27 originally fitted? I am trying to work out what I have.

At present I have an ME block and a KC diff. This sounds more like a triumph 2000 set up?

Thanks all!

GT6 Non Overdrive, although you may have been able to have 3.27 and Overdrive if you asked your Triumph Dealer Nicely?

[Nick Jones]

As Gary says, the 3.27 was originally standard fit on non-OD GT6.  Gives reasonably relaxed cruising, but a very tall 1st gear.  When used with OD it gives a very relaxed top gear cruising - very modern gearing fact (as you observed earlier) and quite unlike the norm for the period.  Nice if your engine has enough grunt to pull it.

That's got me wondering about your engine again - and whether it's a 2L or 2.5L.  The engine no. prefix may not mean a lot as the blocks are interchangeable and the 3.27 diff is quite often added when a 2.5 engine is fitted as it complements the higher torque and less revvy nature.

Nick

[Swifty75]

How would I tell if it was a 2500?

The car drives well and has a lot of torque. If you are trying to pick up speed quickly it feels like there is little benefit in going over 3500 - 4000 rpm.

It does make a louder noise though!!

[RobPearce]

It's quite hard to tell for certain without removing the head. However, the "not much benefit over 4000RPM" is definitely a characteristic of the 2500, especially the carburettor versions (TC/S).

[Steve P]

Pictures of the gearbox would be good to identify saloon or Vitesse box,also which carbs you have might point to 2 or a 2.5?
Steve

[Mark Hammond]

Where is reverse?  Next to 4th-saloon/Dolomite Sprint, next to 1st-Vitesse/GT6/Early Dolomite 1850, next to 3rd-Late Dolomite 1850.  Has the car got Overdrive?

Mark

[Nick Jones]

Gearbox type is no guide to engine displacement.  Fit a Vitesse flywheel and backplate and the Vitesse gearbox fits a 2.5 no problem.  Equally you could fit a saloon box to a 2.0.  Fitting a saloon box in a Vitesse or GT6 is a bit of a mission though.

Easiest way to is to get a long plastic tie wrap or even a piece of wire at least 8" (200mm) long.  Whip out no 1 plug and turn the engine to the TDC mark.  Poke your new special tool through plug hole as vertically as possible and note the depth at which it contacts the piston.  Now turn the crank +180ºC to BDC and insert the tool again until it contacts the piston.  Note the depth again and compare with the original.

2.0 will give about 3" (76 mm)
2.5 will give just short of 4" (95 mm).

Refit spark plug......

I know the technique is hardly high tech or precision but should be possible to detect almost 1" difference!

Nick

[Royboy66]

I have a 2.5 in my GT6,  using a GT6 sump I had to "bash the sump Pan " at the front so the 2.5 cranks longer throw would miss the inside of sump for No1&2 pistons . Maybe worth a look at the front of your sump ?

Regards
Royboy 😎

[Mark Hammond]

Quoted from Nick Jones

Gearbox type is no guide to engine displacement.  Fit a Vitesse flywheel and backplate and the Vitesse gearbox fits a 2.5 no problem.  Equally you could fit a saloon box to a 2.0.  Fitting a saloon box in a Vitesse or GT6 is a bit of a mission though.

Easiest way to is to get a long plastic tie wrap or even a piece of wire at least 8" (200mm) long.  Whip out no 1 plug and turn the engine to the TDC mark.  Poke your new special tool through plug hole as vertically as possible and note the depth at which it contacts the piston.  Now turn the crank +180ºC to BDC and insert the tool again until it contacts the piston.  Note the depth again and compare with the original.

2.0 will give about 3" (76 mm)
2.5 will give just short of 4" (95 mm).

Refit spark plug......

I know the technique is hardly high tech or precision but should be possible to detect almost 1" difference!

Nick

I know that.  I thought that the OP was wondering which 'box was fitted in one of his posts.....

M.

[Swifty75]

All

Finally got down to doing the checks on the engine, to try and determine what it is.

Using a long tie wrap down onto piston 1 the difference between TDC and BDC was just short of 10cm. So looking at this it points to a 2500.

If you look at the sump pan it is not bashed in any place. It is however near touching the steering rack (in fact it might be although there is plenty of oil there!).

Some things point to a 2.5. I am not sure, I suppose the main thing is it is fun to drive.

Thanks to all who commented and offered advice.

Neil

[Ian Pickup]

Hi my problem is still gearbox related due to a medical condition I have to have an automatic and my wife is only licensed for automatic is there any way I can convert my vitesse to an automatic I sure hope I don’t want an old bmw 325 I want a Triumph vitesse 2.0L 

[glang]

Im sure its been done and certainly the Triumph 2000 range used the six cylinder engine with an auto box. Of course the biggest problem is the length of that unit and whether it will fit in the space available. Oh also the overall gear ratio will have to be considered with the ratios available for the vitesse. Youre probably best off starting a new thread to get a higher chance of a good response...