Engine Rebuild Begins...

[thebrookster]

Depends on which cam you have, you really need to get the measurements for the exhaust as well to try and narrow the choice down. If the exhaust is the same as the inlet you have the tr5 cam, as it is the only one of the three that is symmetric. My suspicion would be that it is the tr5 cam you have, I would have thought it would be more likely to mix two 'real' triumph cams than mix up a mklll with an obvious aftermarket spec cam.

In terms of running, all three are wilder than the mklll cam, however from what I can recall not unsuited for the 1500 engine. Touch revvy maybe, but reasonable for torque.

[molten]

Another dumb question.

When looking at the front of the engine, I take it that normal crank rotation is CLOCKWISE?

I know it seems thick but just want to be sure... :P

[Bainzy]

If you find you have a TR5 grind cam, all is not lost Scott - PM me details as I'm in the market for one for my (soon to be injected) 1500.

[RedRooster]

Thought you were supposed to test the shell pre-load with feeler gauges, thats what Des Hammill suggests & he's a good engine builder & a good chunty read.

http://www.bookfinder.com/dir/i/How_to_Blueprint_and_Build_a_4-Cylinder_Engine_Short_Block_for_High_Performance/1874105855/

RR

[Nick Moore]

2597 wrote:

Another dumb question.

When looking at the front of the engine, I take it that normal crank rotation is CLOCKWISE?

I know it seems thick but just want to be sure... :P

Yep, clockwise when looking from the front. Or aunty-clockwise when looking from the driver's seat  ;)

[molten]

I have spoke to the supplier today who said that I must ignore any timing marks on cam sprockets and time from scratch and they assured me that this will not be a TR5 grind as they have not supplied one of those for three years.

So I rotated cam so that no1 valve was at full lift and set clearances on No8 valve to .040" then turned cam repeated process on no2 valve and set no7 clrearance to .040".
I then rotated cam until clearences on 7 & 8 were matched.
Then turned crancshaft to TDC on No1 & 4
Then fitted timing chain.
So if i understand correctly timing should now be set to read valve opening/closing times on the degree wheel - yes?

And still I dont get the right readings on degree wheel (and supplier said I should see near these). The readings seem to be in reverse ie inlet valve opens at 65 degrees BTDC and closed 25 degrees ATDC.
Same on exhaust valve (except reversed).

Just what am I doing wrong?

[thebrookster]

Two things spring to mind here, one have you got the correct valves?  Sounds daft I know, but correct order is as follows:

Rear of engine (cyl 4)
E
I
I
E
E
I
I
E
Front of engine

The other point I note is you mention the valve opening at BTDC and closing at ATDC. This is wrong, as it would mean the valves are only open for a duration of 90 degrees. What should be happening is the valve opens at 25 BTDC (if using a degree wheel of 0 th 360 this will be when 25 points directly up). The 0 mark will then rotate to point straight up, continue round to point straight down and then continue a further 65 degrees on from there (otherwise known as 65 ABDC). This is where the valve should be fully shut. Using the 360 degree wheel the final point would be 125 degrees. To clarify:

Inlet opens Before Top Dead Centre
Inlet closes After Bottom Dead Centre

Exhaust opens After Top Dead Centre
Exhaust closes Before Bottom Dead Centre

Crank must turn 270 degrees between valve open and valve close, but remember to deal with inlet and exhaust individually.

Does this make sense?

Cheers,

Phil

[JohnD]

Molten,
you seem to have mixed features of classic, 'magic number' timing and "equal lift on overlap" timing

Magic number
Set the cam shaft to max lift on No.1 cylinder, INLET valve (NOT "No.1 valve" which is an exhaust valve)
Set the crankshaft to the 'magic number' of degrees after TDC.  Your camshaft grinder should provide this number.
Now fit the chain.

Equal overlap.
Set the camshaft so that there is equal lift on the inlet and exhaust valves on No.4 cylinder. (Which you did, correctly)
Set the crankshaft to TDC.
Now fit the chain.

John

[molten]

JohnD wrote:

Molten,
you seem to have mixed features of classic, 'magic number' timing and "equal lift on overlap" timing

Magic number
Set the cam shaft to max lift on No.1 cylinder, INLET valve (NOT "No.1 valve" which is an exhaust valve)
Set the crankshaft to the 'magic number' of degrees after TDC.  Your camshaft grinder should provide this number.
Now fit the chain.

Equal overlap.
Set the camshaft so that there is equal lift on the inlet and exhaust valves on No.4 cylinder. (Which you did, correctly)
Set the crankshaft to TDC.
Now fit the chain.

John

Hi John
Not sure what you mean by "magic number". Can you explain?
Seems that by setting equal valve clearance on 7 & 8, that is the equal overlap sorted - Yes.

I did set no1 valve (exhaust) to max lift so that I could then set no8 valve (inlet) clearance to .040" Did same on no2 valve so as to set no7 to .040 to equalise.

This cam should have max lift at 110 degrees so...
If I set (no2) inlet to max lift,  should I then move the crank so that 110 degree is at the pointer?

If this is the case, what would this be it ensuring?

Thanks
scott

[molten]

Just wanted to say a big thanks to you guts for helping adfvise me on this - especially Phil (Brookster) and JohnD, between you guys you cleared up the error of my ways :).

Timing now set on No1 cylinder:

Inlet opens @ 22.5 degrees BTDC
Inlet closes @ 63 degrees ABDC

Exhaust opens @ 63 degrees BBDC
Exhaust closes @ 10.5 degrees ATDC (This is the annomoly??)

Inlet at true full lift at 110 degrees ATDC

I think this is as close as I am going to get for now. Rolling road should sort out.

Cheers Gents

Scott

[RedRooster]

[quote=thebrookster]Two things spring to mind here, one have you got the correct valves?  Sounds daft I know, but correct order is as follows:

Rear of engine (cyl 4)
E
I
I
E
E
I
I
E
Front of engine]

Did that once in my youth timed perfectly to the exhaust valve, doh.
RR

[JohnD]

There you go, molten, other people make the same mistake and use the exhaust valve.

The 'magic number' is the number of degrees ATDC that you set the crank if you use max lift on Inlet on bore 1.  The camshaft grinder should provide it.   But if you don't have that number, then equal-lift.

John

[molten]

Evening all..

Ooooh. Noticed a small amount of oil sqeezing its way out of the head between the head and top of the head gasket.

I bought this head recently and know it was skimmed to .006. The head nuts are only torqued to haynes settings. Should these be torqued down more?

Anyone know what the angle torque might be for head nuts in addition to normal torque?

This is oil running off the rocker assembly and the head has no spark plugs so this will be worse when engine is under compresion and oil is warm?

hat do you think?

[AndyV]

Normal torque is fine, I have a 11.25 compression race engine and still go by the normal figures.

Do not assume that the head gasket is leaking, any oil from the rocker gear/cover will gravitate down to the top of the block and due to capilary action just rest in the little gaps.

Best solution is to just wipe it off.

Andy

[molten]

AndyV wrote:

Normal torque is fine, I have a 11.25 compression race engine and still go by the normal figures.

Do not assume that the head gasket is leaking, any oil from the rocker gear/cover will gravitate down to the top of the block and due to capilary action just rest in the little gaps.

Best solution is to just wipe it off.

Andy

Hi Andy

I have wiped this off a few times already..
The rocker cover is not on yet. The oil is weeping out from between the gasket and the head at the corner in the photos.

Thanks

[molten]

Received MK manifold gasket today and opened up inlet & outlet ports on head, inlet manofold & exhaust flange to match gasket. This should help flow a little.

Would it be a waste of time to bolt the Inlet manifold & exhaust manifold to the engine prior to mounting engine back in the car?
Or should I wait until engine /gearbox is in first?

Cheers

[molten]

Engine painted - just waiting to add top laqcuer coat and get rocker painted black.

But I have some questions about ring-gear teeth on starter and flywheel. Are the teeth in need of replacement on both?

Also, there is some wear on the back of the clutch back plate presumably from release bearing? What would cause this wear and should the back plate be replaced.

Suggestions welcome.

Thanks

[molten]

more pics

[molten]

Engine before laqcuer

[TimW]

show off ;) ;)

[mikew]

2597 wrote:

But I have some questions about ring-gear teeth on starter and flywheel. Are the teeth in need of replacement on both?

Also, there is some wear on the back of the clutch back plate presumably from release bearing? What would cause this wear and should the back plate be replaced.

Thanks

it looks very nice, very smart.

How much is a pressure plate ?

This one will fail, its wear from the release bearing, ideally replace pressure plate and release bearing, or be prepared to pull the box out  after 10 or 20k miles and replace later.

In a similar fashion the ring gear and pinion are dead easy to replace now, far more of a pita later. the ring gear isn't too bad to be fair, far more wear on the pinion, but again its worth doing together. OEM ring gears are often listed on ebay.

To remove ring gear, cut down between the teeth with a hacksaw, but not through the ring gear, just 90% of the way, then split the gear with a cold chisel. To replace, take a new ring gear, heat in an oven to 240 degrees or so, and while still very hot fit to flywheel, while tapping gently into place - you can use gas bottles, but you need to polish some sections of the ring until shiny and watch the colour change as it it heated, by playing the flame round and round the gear. The pinion only has a small circlip retaining it.

Both of these items WILL require gearbox removal, and if you don't do both together, it could be box out twice

[molten]

mikew wrote:

it looks very nice, very smart.

How much is a pressure plate ?

This one will fail, its wear from the release bearing, ideally replace pressure plate and release bearing, or be prepared to pull the box out  after 10 or 20k miles and replace later.

In a similar fashion the ring gear and pinion are dead easy to replace now, far more of a pita later. the ring gear isn't too bad to be fair, far more wear on the pinion, but again its worth doing together. OEM ring gears are often listed on ebay.

To remove ring gear, cut down between the teeth with a hacksaw, but not through the ring gear, just 90% of the way, then split the gear with a cold chisel. To replace, take a new ring gear, heat in an oven to 240 degrees or so, and while still very hot fit to flywheel, while tapping gently into place - you can use gas bottles, but you need to polish some sections of the ring until shiny and watch the colour change as it it heated, by playing the flame round and round the gear. The pinion only has a small circlip retaining it.

Both of these items WILL require gearbox removal, and if you don't do both together, it could be box out twice

Thanks Mike.
More money then!!!!!!
Like you say, better now than have to put box out in future.

Anyone got a spare back plate for 1500?  :P

Cheers

[TimW]

http://club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum10/Blah.pl/Blah.pl?m-1339438121/

maybe a bit late now but worth a PM

[Richard B]

2597 wrote:

Ooooh. Noticed a small amount of oil sqeezing its way out of the head between the head and top of the head gasket.

Have you been rotating the engine, if so;

That oil could be coming from the oilway at the back of the block on the N/S. This feeds oil to the the rocker shaft through the head.

You should only need the standard torque on the head 45 - 46lb/ft. But make sure you either have OE cylinder head nuts. Canley will supply these as "Heavy Duty", they are deeper than the normal 3/8" UNF nuts.

If you use the normal ones they are likely to strip the thread and slip.

[molten]

[quote=339]http://club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum10/Blah.pl/Blah.pl?m-1339438121/

maybe a bit late now but worth a PM[/quote

Cheers for the heads up tim but what i meant was the clutch pressure plate - doeh :B :B