Matt306 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 For those who read my thread Close but no cigar will have seen the problems with my gear box.To recap, when the drive is under acceleration or light drive there is no noise, when lifting off the drive a horrid squeel came forth, depress the clutch or knock the gearbox into neutral the noise went.So having got the gear box out I stripped it down. I found the needle roller between the main shaft and input shaft a little notchy, the other bearings seemed ok. The countershaft shows light wear the bushes seem ok in the counter shaft gear. Couple of problems i did note, 3rd Speed mainshaft gear has a tooth missing The second speed synchro cup seemed wedged on 2nd speed main shaft gear, a little twist with a screw driver took it off but it appeared tight on.Will these problems explain the whine from a bearing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nang Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Any obviously worn bits will turn round and bite you in the bum if you don't fix them. Why not do all the bad bits while you have the 'box apart.Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 How about the layshaft pin? any marking means it will remain noisy, as the needle rollers work direct on the surface.It may be time to grab another box, broken teeth not cheap to fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt306 Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 I got another box so hoping that wont have a chipped one, got to clean the outside before i break it open.The countershaft (layshaft?) has wear on it but the gear is bushed not with bearings... or have i the wrong part!Main bearings have a little lateral movement too so they will have to change Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Part 38 in this diagramhttp://www.canleyclassics.com/triumph-herald-13/60-gearbox-mainshaftClean the bearings, and spin them. You will feel them catch if there is an issue (just a tiny catch, but it means it needs replacing)Keep gearsets as matching sets, not a good idea to swap individual gears. No problem reusing many parts, and swapping bearings etc between boxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt306 Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 I was using the triumph manual which calls it a counter shaft but we are talking about the same part! Mine has bushed fitted and not bearing that i can see. The tip bearing on the input shaft is gritty.Item 42 appear missing on my box.I think i'll put this box away then and clean up the other then so as not to swap gears. I'll still use the rebuild kit on the other box so the bearings are good for a few thousand miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 not come across a bushed counter shaft but the item 42 is used to close off the needle roller and gives a face for 43 to run against.with a bush fitted 42 i guess becomes redundantthere areas model years progress a change in tooth profile and these cant be mixed. i dont have a gearbox number or date handy to say when .the mainshaft tip spigot bearing and the internal of the stem /input gear are the weakest points in these gearboxes. having a ring stuck on its cone when disassembling is not uncommon, if stuck when untouched then something is a miss , there's little in gearboxes to 'squeal' thats normal from the flywheel spigot brg or clutch throwoutthe main bearings are only single row ball races there will be some lateral float , thats why all are supported at each end of the mainshaftPete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt306 Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 Hmm i have new clutch and release bearing so not thinking its those. Not sure about where the squeel is from. Going to split down my spare box today.Item 42 i dropped on the floor so it was there but no needle roller i could see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt306 Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 update got the second box to bits this has no broken teeth and looks better. Signs of wear on the lay shaft but again no needle roller bearing just bushed at both ends? Perhaps I have two late boxed where the design was changed due to weak needle rollers? Who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave1360 Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Neither of mine had needle rollers on the layshaft either, and the diagram on Canley's website seems to agree. The only needle roller bearings that I've seen are between the input shaft and the mainshaft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt306 Posted August 8, 2015 Author Share Posted August 8, 2015 Ok rebuild gear box, the old one was bust with a chipped off tooth so am not too grumpy that this hasnt fixed the problem.I have recorded the sound which you can hear when the acceleration is dropped off and the car is slowing. The car has new UJ all round and the prop is a strap type which has been balanced.Please download and listen to the noise... no virus promise!https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5QoHW8GlKGQMTFsZEVnTm1QWTQ/view?usp=sharinghttps://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5QoHW8GlKGQdUZtMktXWjdnTGs/view?usp=sharinghttps://drive.google.com/file/d/0B5QoHW8GlKGQbklVX3FNVUF4NFE/view?usp=sharing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hammond Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Very much sounds like knackered layshaft and/or bearings to me.Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt306 Posted August 8, 2015 Author Share Posted August 8, 2015 Quoted from Mark Hammond Very much sounds like knackered layshaft and/or bearings to me.Mark I just put in a new lay shaft and bearings, the lay gear on mine has bushes not bearings but there was no lateral movement on the lay gear on the shaft , whilst i was at it checked end float on the lay shaft, which was within tolerance ( 0.006" - .0125"). The main bearings were replaced as were the 3 syncromesh, the needle roller in input shaft was replaced. The clutch release bearing is new too, it moves freely as does the rest of the release mechanism.Would the Differential be making a whine when acceleration is lifted off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hammond Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 To my ear that is lay shaft noise. I can't offer anything more than that without driving it. Sorry.Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 If that is the same noise you were getting before, even after rebuilding and fitting a completely different gearbox, logic suggests that it is not the gearbox making the noise.......How does it relate to engine/road speed. That is, can you repeat it slowing down in 2nd and 3rd gear through the same range of engine speeds or does it just happen through a particular range of road speeds?Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hammond Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I hadn't realised that there were two gearboxes involved. Does the engine make this noise when the car is stationary? Does it do it when coasting in neutral?Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt306 Posted August 9, 2015 Author Share Posted August 9, 2015 Quoted from Mark Hammond I hadn't realised that there were two gearboxes involved. Does the engine make this noise when the car is stationary? Does it do it when coasting in neutral?Mark Yes Mark indeed two boxes are involved. The first one was the one which came with the car a three rail three synchro box. During an ebay session some time ago i acquired another 13/60 engine and gearbox for £50. Anyway...The first box which was making the noises i split down and found a tooth chipped off so i went to second box and got a rebuild kit for that one as whilst it was out, I thought it folly not to. So after rebuilding the second with the new parts listed above I still have the noise.I totally agree with the logic that it isnt the gearbox as the noise is there. When rebuilding the car all the UJ were replaced and so they have 100 miles max on them. The prop was serviced professionally and balanced so thinking its not that.This leaves Engine or Diff.... on the diff i replaced the seals and outer bearings nothing else. The engine has new gaskets and a cylinder head skim.There is no noise stationary or out of gear.When under acceleration there is no noise. When under light acceleration no noise. When accelerator is lifted off the noise comes back, increasing when slowing with the brakes.Knock the car into neutral and the noise goes when braking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hammond Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 I still think that this is gearbox related, or at least clutch related. Have you replaced the clutch? Could it be release bearing? The other noise I wonder might be crank thrust washers? I have had noise related to this on a small crank 1296 before but nowhere nearly as bad as that you are experiencing.Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt306 Posted August 9, 2015 Author Share Posted August 9, 2015 Clutch and release bearing are new (100 miles or so old) the rest of the bearing carrier on the clutch arm is fine moving freely.If its the crank thrust washers would it not sound all the time?I have no idea of the Diff history and asked advice from my friendly mechanic today. He seemed to think was probably diff related as when the Diff has lots of play it will whine when the drive is taken off. When the drive is put on the pinion bites into the crown wheel, when released any movement makes a god awful sound.Now i have a second diff do may check all the bearings and backlash and pack up the shims to make it tight and swap them over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted August 9, 2015 Share Posted August 9, 2015 Can't see why engine thrust loads would vary between power on and power off.I'm inclined to suspect the diff though I'd have thought you'd be able tell that the noise is from behind? All the noisy ones I've had have been noisy power on and quiet power off. I have heard of the them behaving the way you describe though. Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt306 Posted August 10, 2015 Author Share Posted August 10, 2015 Any one know any one who has a decent /rebuilt 4.11 diff for a 13/60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hammond Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 There must be loads of decent 4.11:1 diffs around. Most popular diff to upgrade from.....Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve P Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Don`t know where you are but i removed the diff from my 13/60 in favour of a rebuilt 3:63.It is the original, never removed i believe as the car was in a garage for 30 years,it was very quiet although i think the seals had hardened over the years as it did leak.Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt306 Posted August 10, 2015 Author Share Posted August 10, 2015 Cheers Steve P I may take you up on that, I am in Worcestershire. I have one Diff on my work bench and dont know the history of it so it may be out of the frying pan into the fire swapping that over... I am going to invest in ear plugs in the mean time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Lewis Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 see http://www.canleyclassics.com/technical-archive/rear-end-noisesdiffs dont tend to scream or screech, its quite normal on a classic that after hours of homework and tea drinking that the replaced parts never cure the problem Ha !!Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.thumb.jpeg.b15b81ef10abeea1c3039ae03c4a9f3a.jpeg)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.