Found these needle bearings? after my oil change

[mazfg]

I changed my gearbox oil and engine oil..both went into the same washing up bowl. After funneling it into a container ready to take down to the dump I found these broken up needle bearings in the bottom  of the bowl...could this be from my gearbox...whats the prognosis? Should I be alarmed?

[thescrapman]

I'd be more worried about the rusty bolt..

They look a bit like the bearing inside the end of the input shaft that support the mainshaft.

[glang]

ouch! Unless they were left in the gearbox from a previous failure and subsequent rebuild (highly unlikely) I would be rather concerned. Is it noisy in low gears but relatively quiet in 4th? If it is the input to mainshaft bearing as Scrapman suggests you risk damaging them particularly the mainshaft tip which will make the rebuild more difficult and of course expensive.....

[Mark Hammond]

Well as Colin says, they look like the input shaft bearing or what was the bearing.  I'd pull it apart sooner rather than later and remember, a stitch in time saves nine.....

Mark

[GT6 M]

they could be input bearings,BUTT summat really bad must,v gone on in thea to get em actually oot of the area in questionee.

My looot is on the layshaft needles,
reasoning, shaft was stuffed in, but some oft needles had cum adrift,
and puseh into layshaft.
and wid it rotating,they have ..maybe come oot of the bigg iol hole int shaft,
either when its ont go, or wen its stopped, wid wol at bottom.

If found this ona few boxe,s and when took t,bits, there a few needles missing int laygear.

M

[GT6 M]

they could be input bearings,BUTT summat really bad must,v gone on in thea to get em actually oot of the area in questionee.

My looot is on the layshaft needles,
reasoning, shaft was stuffed in, but some oft needles had cum adrift,
and puseh into layshaft.
and wid it rotating,they have ..maybe come oot of the bigg iol hole int shaft,
either when its ont go, or wen its stopped, wid wol at bottom.

Ive found this ona few boxe,s and when took t,bits, there a few needles missing int laygear.

M

[mazfg]

Thanks for the info...it's always more noisy in all bar 4th.... Had the car 5 years now...am I looking at a new gearbox?  Are you saying it could go anytime?  Got overdrive too...not had any dealings with gearboxes before other than not the easiest to recondition?  Would I be best off buying a reconditioned unit and fitting it myself? How easy to seprate from overdrive?  Shame, as Iv'e just had it all off to change the clutch!!  Hoping I might get a summer of driving out of it before it becomes terminal.....?

[mazfg]

Quoted from GT6 M

they could be input bearings,BUTT summat really bad must,v gone on in thea to get em actually oot of the area in questionee.

My looot is on the layshaft needles,
reasoning, shaft was stuffed in, but some oft needles had cum adrift,
and puseh into layshaft.
and wid it rotating,they have ..maybe come oot of the bigg iol hole int shaft,
either when its ont go, or wen its stopped, wid wol at bottom.

Ive found this ona few boxe,s and when took t,bits, there a few needles missing int laygear.

M

I like your reasoning....if it is these...whats the score...been driving it for 5 years...first time i took the gearbox out was when I did the clutch a few weeks back..other than that it's been fine (albeit a all gears bar 4th are noisy..)

[junkuser]

The rollers have nipples on there ends which would suggest they have been in a bearing with an outer case or a cage.
For either type to escape suggests something dramatic has happened.

The longer the box is used, the more the damage to teeth due to incorrect meshing at least, so best have it dismantled to see what can be saved.
Hopefully overdrive type main-shaft is OK so it can be used to convert a non-overdrive box, which should be easier to find.

If you do not feel like working on the box yourself, talk to someone competent to do so, but best not to use till something is done.

[junkuser]

Actual diameters of those rollers would help in working out where they came from mazfg.

[piman]

Hello Mazfg,

overdrives are easily removed but fiddly to replace and need care, well the A type I have is. Apart from having to tie up the oil pump plunger, the gearbox output shaft splines mate with two internally splined parts inside the overdrive and they both need to be lined up, otherwise the overdrive will not mate up to the gearbox.

Alec

[GT6 M]

On closer inspectionee, Malcs right aboot the ends,
originally thought they worn away.
Butt, not all caged rollers are diff shaped ont ends.

the lay needles are straigh,slight rounded ont ends,  And longer than the 4th gear,ns

Butt, find it hard to figure oot just hoo they can come oot.

Noise in 1,2,3 gears indicates either bearings at back, isit a rumbley noise,wid slight felt vibration,
if so,its bearings inner race worn
noise is gear tteth wearing away,or counter shaft worn
nee noise in 4th is cos its direct reet thru, so nee power fed to layshaft, although its still turning

casuse of bearing noises,worn inner race




This happened ona box, needles come oot 4th gear end, and stuk int syncro hub,
whats the chance of this !!



M

[Pete Lewis]

have a look at Encoms ost about the 18mm spigot   say it all.
can be done  to suit  H V S GT6

if the mainshaft spigot is shot you need to find a TKC 923 shaft  

lets hope they are from a previous , or layshaft ...unlikely though.

if its catastrophic  then the inside of the stem  gear could be in trouble as well

mike papworth sells  or can fit a revised mainshaft and stem gear with the 18mm dia.  later spigot  well worth it as this is the weakest part of these old boxes  the 1/2" one just  wears out .

easy to refit an  d type overdrive , dont faf about trying to align the splines in the hubs , just use two screwdrivers and when nearly located lever the piston bars to open the clutch and it flies on ., keep fingers and levers out the way when it drops

Pete

[mazfg]

Thankyou all for the helpful info. The needles are just over 1mm in diameter. I took the car out for a spin today..drove about 20 miles...it all sounds and changes gear as it has for the past 5 years I've had it. Only difference is the new clutch is easier on the leg and quieter (release bearing squeaked somewhat).

I'm deliberating on just buying the whole gearbox and O/D from Quillers??  Not really happy about doing an overhaul myself and I'd rather swap out and back in again and have it on the road for the summer.
As to when i do that...that's the question

[mikeyb]

Quoted from mazfg

I'm deliberating on just buying the whole gearbox and O/D from Quillers??  

Really?  

There are plenty who wouldn't.

Caveat Emptor!

[mazfg]

Quoted from mikeyb

Really?  

There are plenty who wouldn't.

Caveat Emptor!

Oh, noted...

[RobPearce]

I'll just add that my first Vitesse suffered a gearbox failure as a result of the mainshaft tip needle rollers ending up out of place. In my case they jammed in the 3rd/4th selector and made it impossible to change out of third. Can't speak to the quality of any currently available replacement boxes but the ones I bought from John Kipping back in the day have lasted very well.

[junkuser]

"The needles are just over 1mm in diameter."
That suggests they are from the spigot on the mainshaft mazfg.  Original bearings had rollers in an outer shell.
I do not like small diameter rollers on small shafts which ar subjected to side loadings.
Bushes handle such conditions much better and that is what I put in there, same as Rootes Group and others used to for a long time.  I'm sure that the change to bearings by manufacturers was a cost saving/ease of assembly move.
Small rollers under these conditions tend to roll out of parallel to the shaft causing shaft surface damage due to the skidding action and even breakage of the rollers.
A more extreme example is in universal joints and many people on this forum have see what they can look like.
Yep, I use special bushes in these too!  

Enough rave,
Sounds like an overhauled box from a known good gearbox person will be the way to go in your circumstances mazfg.
There may be some reuseable parts in the box that could give a bit of a trade-in consideration but professionals really should only use parts that have no faults. Unlike what we mugs can do.

[junkuser]

But no, there's more!

Before people write off the idea of bushes on the spigot, how long does a 4 speed box spend in an indirect gear?
This is when it is receiving side loadings and even then the speed difference between the spigot and input shaft is relatively low.
It is the side loading rather than the wear rate that is the problem if wear rate seems a possible problem.
The difference in rolling and sliding friction in this use is not a primary consideration.

The main factor for my decision to use modified bronze bushes was the amount of damage that could be done to boxes when the spigot bearing failed.
A bush under these conditions will not break up. If it wears, the gears may start humming due to changes on meshing angles but even this is unlikely.
Mal.

[Pete Lewis]

i Had in my rouges gallery a shaft that had  the spigot cut off, bored and had a ground shaft inserted, all quite well done but they did not fix the slug in the shaft so it moved about wrecked the stem bore and the needles , it also had a single rail 1/2 nd hub as a ratting good fit on the mainshaft and they have extra reverse teeth which must have been interesting,    this was bought as a slave for spares , someone  spent a lot of ££ going know where  .


I prefer the bush design  much more tollerant

Pete

[Davemate]

Dare I say it without being taken out at dawn and shot :-
If it now drives the same as it has for the last 5yrs why not just drive it.
Is it not possible they've been in there for years,in the last 5yrs how many times have you changed the oil

[mazfg]

Quoted from Davemate

Dare I say it without being taken out at dawn and shot :-
If it now drives the same as it has for the last 5yrs why not just drive it.
Is it not possible they've been in there for years,in the last 5yrs how many times have you changed the oil

• Quote

[junkuser]

Pete, I have posted the bush idea at least twice previously on this forum over the years and yours is the first response I've seen.
Thanks for it being positive.

Dave, what you say is quite possible, but I can't understand why someone has gone to the trouble of dismantling a box to replace that bearing and not drained and cleaned out the box.

To change that bearing, at least the cluster gear (many names for that part) must be dropped to the bottom of the box and the box must be disconnected from the input and output mechanisms.

Anything is possible though.

Mal.

[junkuser]

I made a 3 legged puller that hooks on the deep end of the roller type bearing as mine was very tight and trying to hook it out by pulling on the close end just broke the lip off the outer case. Glass hard.

I have dismantled half a dozen of these Herald/Spit boxes since and on one occasion  that original type bearing just fell out when the shaft was stood upright on its gear end while I was washing the parts.
After that I always tried tapping the gear end of the shaft on a piece of hardwood, but only one more fell out using this method, still worth a try.
Varying amounts of pull required for the rest, but none as tight as that first one.

[junkuser]

Pete, I was asked to apply the bush conversion to an MGB box.
Turned out the spigot had been turned down and sleeved for a previous problem.
The sleeve had moved towards the end of the spigot and what a mess that made of the roller bearing used there.
Also damaged the spigot further as the sleeve and bearing jammed and stopped rotating.

I did shrink a sleeve onto the spigot by making an interference fit sleeve, bringing the sleeve to red heat while not parted off, mounting shaft in the lathe and forcing the new bit on using the tail-stock centre  whilst rotating and piening when in position.
Next parted off, outer surface finished and suitable bush made.

Have no idea if it was ever used as the owners had fitted a second hand box.  
So much for love jobs, but at least it was an interesting challenge.