Over bright headlights

[Rutty]

11 hours ago, Roger Keys said:

 

The reality is, people need to buy decent LED lights if they are going to move away from stock. Theres heaps of crap on the market. But the people who dont bother to find out what works, likely wont try them out before the event, check the beam pattern or anything else.

 

I have to agree that several cars with LEDs appeared to have as much beam pattern as a household light bulb.

There seems to be an assumption that fitting LEDs gives you better headlights, but fitting cheap, poor quality LEDs can endup giving you worse lights and blinding everyone around you.

[thebrookster]

Unfortunately, I rather suspect that many MOT stations simply don't bother checking beam alignment any more. Not just an issue with classics, but moderns as well. So, regrettably I suspect the holding of an MOT certificate will make little improvement. And in regards to our cars, first find a station that actually understands classics and can MOT then appropriately!

LED lights have long been a bug bear of mine, I simply hate them as dipped beams and strongly believe they should be banned outright for all. Even in my truck I find cars blinding me when oncoming, and I am sat well above the average driver. But again, I refuse to believe so many headlights go out of adjustment so fast after an MOT, hence I suspect simply not checked!

I strongly urge all owners to follow the above advice of using normal bulbs for dipped. A very good idea if it can be implemented.

For the record, I do actually run an LED light bar on the truck, mainly because the headlights on the Ford Rangers are notoriously terrible (my 2000 fixed beams put out more light lol), which is linked to the main beams. I also use the trailor function to lower the dips when following cars, to ensure my cutoff is below their rear window!

I do wonder if CT should maybe issue some general guidelines for what standards are deemed "acceptable", rather than relying on a vehicle being "road legal/MOT'd", as we are all aware that is a movable goalpost these days. Such a document would cover all events as well, not just this one and might help mitigate the removal of MOT requirements. After all, who better to take the lead than enthusiasts clubs!

Phil

[Tim Bancroft]

Hi Phil,

We have been issuing 'Advice Notes' for years, still not convinced that people read them.

MOT guidance, not sure we have the authority to do such a thing?

 

[MarkB]

Like a lot of you, been driving 40+ years, and being caught in the beam of LED head lights is a distraction and dangerous. Noticing it more and more with the piercingly bright headlights fitted to modern cars. Eyes tested recently, fortunatly healthy, just needed reading glasses.  Think the potential saftey benifits are out weighed by the dangers to other road users.  How they passed scrutiny of the various regulatory bodies surprises me. Upgraded the Vitesse to Halogen lights, more than bright enough in my opinion, unless your on a night rally, through the woods.

[JohnD]

18 minutes ago, Tim Bancroft said:

Hi Phil,

We have been issuing 'Advice Notes' for years, still not convinced that people read them.

MOT guidance, not sure we have the authority to do such a thing?

 

Tim,

It's your event - or CT's - you can insist on anything you like to qualify for entry!    Including a headlamp test if so desired, but clearly not.

On yellow headlights: many may recall that French cars usually had them until some years ago.  This was said to show the French devotion to scientific improvement of motoring, as expressed in the Citroen DS of the same era.   Yellow was introduced in France in 1936, expressedly for that reason, but became mandatory under the Nazi occupation, when French vehicles were compelled to show yellow headlights to inhibit night time movements by the Resistance.      That may be doubted as the edict was continued until 1993, but may also be believed as the French are more devoted to quirky tradition - la différence  - than even the English!

John

[Buttercup]

1 hour ago, Tim Bancroft said:

Hi Phil,

We have been issuing 'Advice Notes' for years, still not convinced that people read them.

MOT guidance, not sure we have the authority to do such a thing?

 

Well Tim, being a 'Newby' to the RBRR I did read the notes and thank you for those, they made me spend even more money! 😁 No seriously, if people don't read them it's their loss and could possibly have prevented some of the entries from retiring.

There were some cars with bright lights, there is no denying that, the only time it really affected me was when going down the A483 where we were closely following each other, for reasons I am not sure about 🤣😂🤣.

Did it ruin my RBRR? Definitely not, I dipped and adjusted my external mirrors.

Like you said, let's focus on the positives of the event! We have raised over £71k now!! 

With regard to the Yellow Night Time glasses, I can confirm they do take some of the glare away, I didn't have them on me during the RBRR but bought some for my mum years ago when she complained about the same issue.

[Mike North]

On 15/10/2023 at 07:34, Tim Bancroft said:

This light issue has been a problem on the RBRR for ever, to the point that it is not worth discussing. Hence, my rather glib reply of just dip or move the rear view mirror.

We cannot scrutineer the cars on the event as we have no right to do so. We just hope that the cars on the event have been put through a MOT. For the life of me I still do not understand why old cars are MOT exempt.

I'd rather discuss the positives of the RBRR.

 

Tim

Agree, lets discuss the positives of the RBRR. We all had a great time, good to be out driving the cars and, as usual it was EPIC

MOT? Agree, for peace of mind and insurance, an current MOT is a must. Added benefit is that the headlight LED's on Moby are dipped beam adjusted to pass the MOT (dipped beam only, high beam isn't tested). So we know our car complies 👍

 

[GT64fun]

On 16/10/2023 at 10:04, thebrookster said:

I do actually run an LED light bar on the truck

On the 2018 RBRR I inadvisably flashed a truck that I thought hadn't dipped and was met by a responding flash of lights and lightbar, that damm near blinded us!

Ian

Edited October 18, 2023 by GT64fun
spelling

[thebrookster]

6 hours ago, Tim Bancroft said:

Hi Phil,

We have been issuing 'Advice Notes' for years, still not convinced that people read them.

MOT guidance, not sure we have the authority to do such a thing?

 

Not so much MOT guidance I was thinking off, Tim, rather a document that mimics the MOT requirements and focuses on safety of events. Hence headlights/shocks/tyres/brakes would immediately come to mind. This could then be sent as part of the joining pack for all CT events, and would give a guideline to owners as to standards expected? Many of us already have a good idea of these of course, but I imagine would be very useful for new members or those who are not so mechanically minded?

Just a thought anyway.

[thebrookster]

2 hours ago, GT64fun said:

On the 2018 RBRR I inadvisably flashed a truck that I thought hadn't dipped and was met by a responding flash of lights and lightbar bar, that dam near blinded us!

Ian

Yeah, I only ever flash (and a quick flash at that) under serious provocation for that very reason!

[ferny]

LED bulbs aren't the problem, the lamps they are in is. I've got LED bulbs in mine and they're in modern plastic lamps which use the reflector to create the beam and not the lens. I do worry they are too bright as the volume of lumens can be a problem, but I'm confident my beam pattern is good. The kick up on the left is pronounced, which is why I try not to spend too much time overtaking. I'm happy for people to advice on my thoughts if I've been behind them. I don't get flashed by oncoming vehicles. 

 

Here are my lights, dipped and main.

[Shynsy]

On 14/10/2023 at 10:44, Howard said:

Our cars have to be legal for use on the road, so headlights have to already meet the MOT beam requirements. While not a legal requirement, many of us still have a regular MOT inspection, so our lights have already been checked.

I suspect that the main cause of the problem is that when the car is MOT tested it is unloaded, but during events like the RBRR in addition to a crew it also has a boot loaded with tools and spares. After I realised some years ago that my dipped lights were still causing problems for people in front, I leave a representative load in the boot when its MOT checked so my lights don't blind people in front.

Cheers

Howard

 

Couldn't agree more. Rbrr 2021 we ran my TR6 with LEDs. While not as bad as some it was clear they were aimed too high. This was despite getting them set up in an mot the week before. But this was an empty car. I think 2 seaters suffer from thus worse than saloons as you sit close to the back axles. For this rbrr I drove my stag. I played with LEDs and also all 4 headlamps on for dipped beams during the year. In both these configuration despite the aims in theory being good I had oncoming cars flashing. In the end I settled on halogen night breakers on the outer lights running dip and main and a pair of leds on the inner running as mains. No flashes and the main beams were awesome. 

Interestingly my mot station rejected one set of quite expensive leds as there was no beam pattern. 

Tim 

[iani]

5 minutes ago, Shynsy said:

<snip>

Interestingly my mot station rejected one set of quite expensive leds as there was no beam pattern. 

</snip>

I had my beam checked the day before RBRR with the same result, no beam pattern from my LEDs, a quick swap back to Halogen and a recheck, all was well, £10 well spent.

[Kevin R]

What has been omitted from this discussion is that headlights and especially the upgraded versions really need motor driven units to dynamically correct the beam.  If there is no facility to control this they can be a nuisance and not the cheap and simple upgrade they seem, moreso in short wheelbase cars .

My previous modern  (2004) with halogens had a dial on the headlamp switch so that the beam could be adjusted remotely to suit if you were unloaded/loaded or pulling a trailer.

My current modern (2013) has Xenon lights that are motor driven and dynamically respond to the movement of the car via a range sensor and 3 suspension sensors - NSF OSF and 1 at the rear.  This year all 3 have failed one by one at a cost of £200 each inc labour !  Sadly, when the sensors fail, the headlights instead of defaulting to a mid position just point straight down which is like trying to drive with sidelights.  The way forwards is backwards.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Kevin R

[Rosbif]

36 minutes ago, Kevin R said:

the upgraded versions really need motor driven units to dynamically correct the beam.

My Yeti goes through a sort of haka routine at every start up. Left, right, up, down, outwards & inwards.

Don't know what their default setting is is the sensors fail, at those prices I'm in no hurry to find out

[Tim Hunt]

I was impressed by Alan Chatterton's headlights on the 2018 RBRR and he told me the bulbs were 'Nighteyes' (more recently re-branded as 'Novsight') so on returning home I ordered a pair of H4 bulbs on ebay (for only £19.89!!). They were nicely packaged and seemed very nice quality for the astonishingly low price. They did not have integral fans, rather relying on ribbed aluminium heat sinks for cooling. They have tiny LED light sources intended to mimic exactly the positions of dip and main beam filaments in a conventional incandescent bulb. Having heard horror stories about uncontrolled beams from cheap far eastern LED bulbs, before I fitted them I pulled the TR up a few metres from my garage door and carefully marked the cut off of the dipped beam pattern from my existing Philips Racing Vision halogen H4s. I then replaced these by the Novsight bulbs and repeated the exercise. The beam pattern on dip was identical with an excellent, sharp asymmetric cut off. These bulbs illuminate the nearside kerb or verge well ahead with a very impressive spread of light and cause no inconvenience to oncoming drivers. As I am still running a dynamo a big bonus of the LED bulbs is the dramatically reduced power consumption. It is still odd to switch on the headlights and see the ammeter needle hardly deflect! 

I particularly appreciated these LED bulbs on the 2021 RBRR and after nearly five years they continue to impress on any night drive. I see no reason to upgrade to Philips or other more exotic LEDs at £80+ a pair. How much better can they be?

Tim

[ferny]

8 hours ago, Tim Hunt said:

I was impressed by Alan Chatterton's headlights on the 2018 RBRR and he told me the bulbs were 'Nighteyes' (more recently re-branded as 'Novsight') so on returning home I ordered a pair of H4 bulbs on ebay (for only £19.89!!). They were nicely packaged and seemed very nice quality for the astonishingly low price. They did not have integral fans, rather relying on ribbed aluminium heat sinks for cooling. They have tiny LED light sources intended to mimic exactly the positions of dip and main beam filaments in a conventional incandescent bulb. Having heard horror stories about uncontrolled beams from cheap far eastern LED bulbs, before I fitted them I pulled the TR up a few metres from my garage door and carefully marked the cut off of the dipped beam pattern from my existing Philips Racing Vision halogen H4s. I then replaced these by the Novsight bulbs and repeated the exercise. The beam pattern on dip was identical with an excellent, sharp asymmetric cut off. These bulbs illuminate the nearside kerb or verge well ahead with a very impressive spread of light and cause no inconvenience to oncoming drivers. As I am still running a dynamo a big bonus of the LED bulbs is the dramatically reduced power consumption. It is still odd to switch on the headlights and see the ammeter needle hardly deflect! 

I particularly appreciated these LED bulbs on the 2021 RBRR and after nearly five years they continue to impress on any night drive. I see no reason to upgrade to Philips or other more exotic LEDs at £80+ a pair. How much better can they be?

Tim

These are what I have in the Herald. I had the active cooling (with a fan) version in my old van. 

 

In the Herald there been an improvement in that I expect them to last longer than halogen, which has been a problem with my firmer suspension. In the van, I went from wondering how I didn't hit what I'd just driven passed which I could only see at 2 feet distance, to actually being able to see!

[Shepsy]

Wow! I didn’t realise that you could see the road ahead when driving a classic.

 I drive a Mk2 Vitesse with sealed beams fitted. You can probably imagine how difficult night driving is as the moment

 Those Novsight bulbs look really impressive, Can anyone recommend what I need to do a full conversion?

Many thanks.

Pete.

[Tim Hunt]

You will need to junk the sealed beams Pete and obtain headlight units that accept conventional halogen bulbs. On the TR I already had excellent 7" Valeo/Cibie units, which are sadly NLA. The Novsight H4s were a straight swap for my existing H4 halogens and the wiring fitted inside the headlamp bowls with no issues. I am aware you have a twin 5" set up on the Vitesse and am sure someone else will be along shortly with specific advice.

Tim

[Rutty]

11 hours ago, Shepsy said:

Wow! I didn’t realise that you could see the road ahead when driving a classic.

 I drive a Mk2 Vitesse with sealed beams fitted. You can probably imagine how difficult night driving is as the moment

It shouldn’t be that bad, I run Sealed beams on my big saloon and did the whole of the RBRR with sealed beams with no problems.
The main reason for poor lights is dirt and corrosion effectively acting as a resistor. I recently looked at a mates 2.5 who was complaining the lights weren’t great and the 4 way bullet connector for the headlights was so corroded it was to hot to touch. 
I fitted a new connector and cleaning up all the connections and now it’s fine and his lights are brighter.

Before fitting LEDs or halogen (my personal choice) I would clean all the connectors, replace any that are to far gone and use a pair of pliers to crimp up any that are lose. Also fit relays as this will take the load of your light switches and they will last longer. 

 

 

[Clive]

Following on, relays alone make an imporessive improvement. I assume because they take out several connectors and switches from the power circuit. And yes, never underestimate the issues a poor connector can make. I recently had ythat on my Dolomite. The fan was poorly fitted/wired by the previous owner. This caused fuses to get so hot they stopped working, the heat damage being at one end, not melting in the middle as is usual. And getting far too hot to touch. (all that seems to have resulted in a blown head gasket. A damaged thermostat housing and split hose didn't help 😩

[yorkshire_spam]

27 minutes ago, Clive said:

And yes, never underestimate teh issues a poor connector can make.

Even with relays - one of my snagging items before the RBRR on the Spitfire was "NS Headlamp (dipped beam) dim" - one of the bullet sleeve connectors behind the front grill was corroded, fine for the OS, but NS was down on brightness. Changing the connection sleeve solved it in 5 minutes. 

 

[Shynsy]

On 22/10/2023 at 12:08, Tim Hunt said:

I was impressed by Alan Chatterton's headlights on the 2018 RBRR and he told me the bulbs were 'Nighteyes' (more recently re-branded as 'Novsight') so on returning home I ordered a pair of H4 bulbs on ebay (for only £19.89!!). They were nicely packaged and seemed very nice quality for the astonishingly low price. They did not have integral fans, rather relying on ribbed aluminium heat sinks for cooling. They have tiny LED light sources intended to mimic exactly the positions of dip and main beam filaments in a conventional incandescent bulb. Having heard horror stories about uncontrolled beams from cheap far eastern LED bulbs, before I fitted them I pulled the TR up a few metres from my garage door and carefully marked the cut off of the dipped beam pattern from my existing Philips Racing Vision halogen H4s. I then replaced these by the Novsight bulbs and repeated the exercise. The beam pattern on dip was identical with an excellent, sharp asymmetric cut off. These bulbs illuminate the nearside kerb or verge well ahead with a very impressive spread of light and cause no inconvenience to oncoming drivers. As I am still running a dynamo a big bonus of the LED bulbs is the dramatically reduced power consumption. It is still odd to switch on the headlights and see the ammeter needle hardly deflect! 

I particularly appreciated these LED bulbs on the 2021 RBRR and after nearly five years they continue to impress on any night drive. I see no reason to upgrade to Philips or other more exotic LEDs at £80+ a pair. How much better can they be?

Tim

Tim, that is really interesting.. I had exactly the reverse experience with the same bulbs in my stag. I fitted them and had a very embarrassing 2 hour drive back from Stansted when everyone was flashing me. I then took them to get professionally aligned by my trusted MoT man and he could not get a decent image on his gizmo and advised them to junk them. I did check the beam against a wall before I junked them and it did have a fair amount of stray light on the oncoming vehicle side.  

Now I am wondering if it is my reflectors, although I had no flashes from oncoming traffic through out the rbrr when I refitted osram night breakers. 

Odd

Tim

[Pete PiEst]

My thoughts are that those lights don't really suit classic cars but I do get the "It's nice to see where you're going" so my two penneth are:

Get decent Bulbs, make sure your reflectors / lenses are clean and shiny and then adjust them correctly !!

If we're honest we may all like to think that we're doing 150mph but in reality we aint, so the need to see 3 miles up the road doesn't apply and therefore the requirement for WWII Search lights on the front of our cars is a bit of overkill ... If you have the urge for more light maybe some period driving lights ??

As has been said before the improvement of using relays and correctly gauged wire can't be over stated - It DOES make a difference..

The Mrs was in "That Lundun" today and picked up a free rag, in a section called "Lessons from History"

Summed it up for me ..

I leave you with the immortal words of Chief ARP Warden Hodges "Put those bloody lights OUT!!" .. Well you know what I mean 😂

 

[Rubce]

Nightbreaker bulbs get my vote and are fitted to both our Stag and GT6.

Bruce