MOT or not

[boiler]

Hello to everybody. I bought a Triumph Stag about 13 years ago and it was fitted with a Triumph 2500 tc engine. It has always (since I've had it) been tax exempt as a vehicle of historic interest. As the engine is not original does this mean I will still need to get an MOT?

Thanks 

[Clive]

2 ways of looking at this. 

The engine was a "common" change within 10 years of the end of production, so you should be OK.

Better option. Get an MoT each year. No downside at all (except a relatively small cost, but if you don't get an MoT how will you be verifying the car is all in roadworthy condition?)

[Dannyb]

The garage I go to said they can do the MOT test without logging into the system and they will give me a letter of road worthiness.

[TedTaylor]

Yes as Danny says and as I suggested a while ago because my local tester in Cinderford will do precisely that - and to be honest is the safest way of doing things.  Problem with getting a normal MOT done is that go to the wrong testing station and they will apply aspects of the test which are meant for modern cars, and if the test was done and failed on one of the serious categories it can require the car to be left at the test station to be repaired or only removed from the testing station on a transporter.

If the engine conversion was done over 30 years ago it is not a problem - info from the explanation sheet that goes with form V112 to declare exemption from MOT and to get log book changed to Historic. By implication this is a rolling date. The engine change if done some time ago should show in the log book unless someone did not bother to get the engine conversion details updated.

MUT

[Gt6s]

Because the engine is of non original type / six instead of eight cylinders. You need an Mot. Sorry.

[TedTaylor]

Lawrence as I understand the reading of the support notes for V112 that only applies if done within the past 30 years.  If done before before then it is OK - i.e. at the moment pre 1988 but this rolls on to '89 next year ...... and so on.  Unless DVLA or whoever change things!

The words under category 'R' for exemption for MOT are 'not substantially changed in the last 30 years' ....... but it would need proof hence a change in an early log book (if one is available) dated beforehand or something else.  The next paragraph in the 'What does substantially changed mean' repeats that if done more than 30years ago it is OK.

MUT

 

[boiler]

Thanks for all replies.

I do not know how long ago the engine was changed. It seems from everybodys kind replies

that the information available is a bit misleading. I don't mind getting an MOT but some garages do not know how to treat a classic car and I was always getting a string of advisory which is annoying. I found a garage recently that I have used in the last two years that tests quite a few classics and I have had mine tested there with no problems highlighted at all. I look after the car and do very little mileage so would consider taking it for an MOT but not necessarily every year. I would just like the position clarified beyond doubt.Thanks to everyone for taking the time to answer my question.

 

[Hogie]

Hi Richard,

              what ever happens to the car re- regulations etc do get it MOT'd EVERY year.

Quite a few components fade away over time and you will not notice it unless it is being driven or looked for.

 

A second pair of eyes is worth every penny.

 

Roger

[TedTaylor]

As Danny and I said above - does not need to be an MOT but something to MOT standard. 

Just realised there is another let out in the MOT rules where a different type of engine is fitted. The notes that go with Form V112 allows 'Changes of a type that are made to preserve a vehicle (must be when original type parts are not available)'

Was the engine changed to Rover V8 because of the supply situation over good usable Stag engines when original became unrepairable .... or even for changing it back now?

MUT

[Gt6s]

Quoted from TedTaylor-

Lawrence as I understand the reading of the support notes for V112 that only applies if done within the past 30 years.  If done before before then it is OK - i.e. at the moment pre 1988 but this rolls on to '89 next year ...... and so on.  Unless DVLA or whoever change things!

The words under category 'R' for exemption for MOT are 'not substantially changed in the last 30 years' ....... but it would need proof hence a change in an early log book (if one is available) dated beforehand or something else.  The next paragraph in the 'What does substantially changed mean' repeats that if done more than 30years ago it is OK.

 

 

 

Quoted from TedTaylor-

Lawrence as I understand the reading of the support notes for V112 that only applies if done within the past 30 years.  If done before before then it is OK - i.e. at the moment pre 1988 but this rolls on to '89 next year ...... and so on.  Unless DVLA or whoever change things!

The words under category 'R' for exemption for MOT are 'not substantially changed in the last 30 years' ....... but it would need proof hence a change in an early log book (if one is available) dated beforehand or something else.  The next paragraph in the 'What does substantially changed mean' repeats that if done more than 30years ago it is OK.

MUT

 

Copy and paste from V112

Engine – alternative cubic capacities of the same basic engine and alternative original equipment engines (if the number of cylinders in an engine is different from the original it is unlikely to be alternative original equipment).

 

Laurence

[Clive]

My understanding, as above, is that you can claim MOT exemption as long as either (a) the engine comes from within that car model "family". I could get exemption on my Toledo as it had a 1300, currently has an 1850 engine, or a even sprint. Option (b) is that the engine swap was common within 10 years of end of production. So Ford V6, Rover V8 in a stag should be OK. Guess plenty had a Triumph 6 pot fitted too. Same thing applies to Spitfires fitted with 6 pot engines.

Of course, all this speculation/interpretation is fine. As is getting a check from a garage. But should the smelly stuff hit the fan THEN I would be wanting a proper MoT certificate in my hand. Not sure how certain I would be that I had interpreted the rather grey rules correctly, and whether "the system" would agree.

[Gt6s]

Clive the thing is REALLY UNCLEAR and contradicts itself. especially as I have a Sixfire 2500 registered as a 1500 Spit with the 2.5.(2500 S Gt6 Spitfire hybrid). My reading of it is that she needs MOT. (Not applicable in NI anyway). Had she been registered as a Gt6 she would be exempt. I could put her on one of the Gt6 log books I have. However personalised number on her so that rules that idea out completely.

Laurence

[TedTaylor]

Clive when I first read your last comment I thought your were wrong.  Now just read the copy of the V112 notes ...... and think you are right in many respects.  As laurence says it is not clear.

"Engine - alternative capacities of the same basic engine."  Yes that is straightforward, for example any of the big six capacity engine group (2000/2500), or Herald engine group (946/1147/1360) or Dolly engine group (1850/2000) can be swapped around within the group.

But then goes on to say - "and alternative original equipment engines". Does that mean any Triumph engine is OK because they were original equipment engines in a Triumph can be swapped in"     arghhhhhh

And then "(if the number of cylinders in an engine is different from original it is unlikely to be alternative original equipment"  So a Ginetta G21 with original alternatives of Ford Kent and Hillman (etc.) Hunter - both four cylinder or Ford Essex six cylinder ....... !

Later it goes on to say as you point out Clive "Changes of a type that have been made when the type of vehicle was in production or in general use (within 10 years of the end of production)"  For a Stag this takes us up to 1987? and I am pretty sure there were examples of the Stag V8 being swapped for a Triumph six cylinder or a Rover V8 within that time scale when fixing the Stag engine was problematical and the fixes developed by the Stag specialists had not come on stream.

On all these counts a Stag fitted with a six cylinder engine (or a Rover V8) is acceptable.  Perhaps if someone asks the specific question if anyone did the engine swap before 1987 and one person says yes and has proof (magazine article printed before 1987) ....... problem solved!

MUT

[Clive]

But of course, the govt dept responsible for all this nonsense suggest you should ask an expert if you are unsure. Now, anybody willing to take up that position? Remember, if you say something IS acceptable, and that car is then involved in a serious incident, will it come back and bite you in the buttocks? I cannot help but think that the legislation is so poorly worded that a conviction would be difficult. But I for one would not be wanting to justify anything in a court of law. 

Did I mention my MoT on the Toledo (slant 4 engine from a dolomite installed, so is OK if I felt lucky) is due soon?

[Gt6s]

It is definitely as clear as mud. I do not see how anyone could be prosecuted by their own interpretation of the rules as just mentioned, Certainly legally questionable at least. Full of loopholes I like loopholes.

 

Laurence

[thescrapman]

Quoted from cliftyhanger-

But of course, the govt dept responsible for all this nonsense suggest you should ask an expert if you are unsure. Now, anybody willing to take up that position? Remember, if you say something IS acceptable, and that car is then involved in a serious incident, will it come back and bite you in the buttocks? I cannot help but think that the legislation is so poorly worded that a conviction would be difficult. But I for one would not be wanting to justify anything in a court of law. 

Did I mention my MoT on the Toledo (slant 4 engine from a dolomite installed, so is OK if I felt lucky) is due soon?

The expert is not saying it is safe, the expert is saying it was done, they are an expert on the history of Triumphs and the history of fitting different engines. 

[sparky_spit]

Another aspect to the "MOT or not?" question is which is better long term?  Assuming your car is eligible to be MOT exempt and you can choose whether to still have an official MOT,  or a MOT style check (or nothing at all); which is the better long term strategy?

Do you MOT it and face increasingly more stringent test criteria which makes it more and more difficult for our cars to pass as time goes on?

Or always keep it as a VHI and possibly face future usage restrictions and other goverment imposed restrictions further down the line?

[Clive]

Quoted from thescrapman-

Quoted from cliftyhanger-

But of course, the govt dept responsible for all this nonsense suggest you should ask an expert if you are unsure. Now, anybody willing to take up that position? Remember, if you say something IS acceptable, and that car is then involved in a serious incident, will it come back and bite you in the buttocks? I cannot help but think that the legislation is so poorly worded that a conviction would be difficult. But I for one would not be wanting to justify anything in a court of law. 

Did I mention my MoT on the Toledo (slant 4 engine from a dolomite installed, so is OK if I felt lucky) is due soon?

The expert is not saying it is safe, the expert is saying it was done, they are an expert on the history of Triumphs and the history of fitting different engines. 

Colin, the implication is that an expert should be able to decide if the car is too modified too? Another club posted an article suggesting a sprint engine and n a Toledo is ok, but fitting twin carbs to the original engine may not, likewise axle swap to sprint may have an issue. So there are serious descretion issues... This is all about stuff that may not have happened at the time. 

As I said, too many grey areas.

[Guppy916]

I have a 2.5 engine in my GT6 MK3, Ive had two mot's since i've restored the car, even the LED head lights passed, I had to adjust the beam angle to obtain the correct beam shape, the tester always say's why bother to mot it, he gets the same answer "it keeps the wife happy",

He has never mentioned the engine change, I told him the first time it was changed before I got the car, back in 2011

[Rick60]

I quite enjoy the whole process of getting my GT6 MoT'd. I spend an hour in the company of an old mate, we put the world to rights over a coffee and generally rip the p** out of each other. And I (usually) come away with a clean bill of health (and an MoT certificate for the car!). I find it quite satisfying to know that I am maintaing and repairing my Triumph properly.

As for more stringent regulations, the GT6 is the least of my worries. I've just had my 240k mile X Type fail an emission test because in the time I've had the car (since new) the ministry have decided to halve the allowable emissions with no regard to 'grandfather's rghts'!

 

[Don Cook]

The issue of the V112 form is largely pointless as, when applying on-line for Road Fund Licence for a tax-exempt car, your car will automatically be made MOT exempt regardless of the V112. The DVLA/GOV have made a pigs ear of this, no doubt about that.

You have all pointed out the grey and confusing areas in MOT exemption but please beware of coming to your own conclusions and making decisions that might be irrelevant; early days yet for garages to make alternative testing/checking arrangements.

In a past-life I have had to dissect many legal documents and Govt/Local Govt policies, solely to find a weakness and terms such as "unlikely" (when referring to the number of cylinders) is bread and butter to lawyers, there will be case-law that covers poor language and it is not enough for anyone to have a defence such as "that's not what we meant" even if it's the Government!

Anyoldroadup, I went out in my tuned, 5 speed GT6 yesterday and it seems to be getting better with each passing year. Anything that makes it easier to enjoy is a bonus so thanks GOV!

[Don Cook]

The issue of the V112 form is largely pointless as, when applying on-line for Road Fund Licence for a tax-exempt car, your car will automatically be made MOT exempt regardless of the V112. The DVLA/GOV have made a pigs ear of this, no doubt about that.

You have all pointed out the grey and confusing areas in MOT exemption but please beware of coming to your own conclusions and making decisions that might be irrelevant; early days yet for garages to make alternative testing/checking arrangements.

In a past-life I have had to dissect many legal documents and Govt/Local Govt policies, solely to find a weakness and terms such as "unlikely" (when referring to the number of cylinders) is bread and butter to lawyers, there will be case-law that covers poor language and it is not enough for anyone to have a defence such as "that's not what we meant" even if it's the Government!

Anyoldroadup, I went out in my tuned, 5 speed GT6 yesterday and it seems to be getting better with each passing year. Anything that makes it easier to enjoy is a bonus so thanks GOV!

[pete jackson]

I have booked, my now MoT exempt Triumph in for its annual MoT inspection.

Even I who did inspections once still believe 2 heads are better than none when checking important mechanical things 😉 

[TedTaylor]

Form V112 is needed if your car is still on PLG for its taxation class and not Historic, and is necessary to be able to make the change to Historic.  Apologies for repeating the following information but there are still people out there who do not know how it works.

If your car is still PLG complete V112 - download from the DVLA website - complete the form and take it to a Post Office that does vehicle tax - make sure that you comply with the requirements on V112 for Historic.  Also change taxation class to Historic in section 7 of your V5C and sign it and take the two (V5C and V112) to the Post Office - takes about a minute for them to do.  You can post it if you want but a bit pointless especially if there is a Post Office near your local Post Box.

The Post Office will check your form and return it to you, and then alter the info on the DVLA website concerning your car to Historic.  They will then retain your V5C to send to DVLA who will send you a new V5C in 4 - 6 weeks (just got mine back for my London Sydney/Monte/World Cup Landcrab after doing the change to Historic).

From the instant the Post Office has amended the details on the DVLA website your car is able to be taxed as Historic.  You could do it there and then at the Post Office if you want (might as well as it is free🙂).  Thought it was necessary for a car to be Insured (most of mine are on my Group Policy anyway) but one was not and when I did the change to Historic, without asking for it to be taxed the DVLA computer did it automatically !!!!!!!

If you go to tax a car that is already Historic on the V5C the DVLA computer will automaticaly identify it as such and not requiring an MOT or pay a fee. Form V112 is now redundant for your car.

MUT

[boiler]

Having consulted an expert,the email of which was found on the FBHVC website, it would appear that the type of engine conversion I have was available before ten years after the end of production of the stag so an MOT will no longer be required. i found in the last few years that some garages do not really know how to deal with a classic car regarding MOT's and I was coming away with a string of advisories until I found a sensible garage where it passed for the last few years without any advisories.