Which alternative engine

[MK3]

I have a MK3 Spitfire down to a bare chassis and am tempted to replace the engine, gearbox, axle, suspension and brakes with something more modern and make the necessary changes to the chassis and bodywork to accommodate. The aim being to leave it still looking like a MK3 Spitfire but from a driveability perspective it would be more powerful and modern.

I'm not concerned with retaining originality or going with a Triumph 6 engine etc.

What engine, gearbox, axle, suspension and brakes would you recommend going for ?

I assume a modern 4 cylinder would be an easier conversion and require less bodywork changes.

I'm looking for something that would give really good performance but still be economical to drive due to the power to weight ratio.

Any suggestions ?

[MrSpeedy]

The MX5 engine/box seems most popular. You have to be careful as most modern engines are quite a bit taller due to being overhead cam as opposed to our over head valve engines.

I did see a Spitfire at a show a couple of months ago at Earls Barton which had a very tidy conversion using the Rover 1.8 K series. I like the idea of the family blood line being retained

[ferny]

K series - should all have their head studs done by now. What's parts avaibility like? Seems to have gone out of fashion now but there were a few about.

Pinto - Used to be common.

Zetec - Probably the most common. Opens up a whole new world when it comes to modifications and power.

Duratec - Think it's been done a couple of times. Very tall engine, not cheap but poooowaarrrr.

MX5 - Cheap but not powerful unless you go forced induction. Comes with a ready fitting gearbox and you can choose the fit it an easy way or a difficult way...

RX7 - Been done. Lots of power, lots of revs, lots of money when it does go bang.

MR2 - I was going to do this, but it's low on power and gearbox options are VERY expensive.

Has no-one go down the redtop/Omega 'box route? I know a Dolomite was having it done, that's how I got my 1500 engine. There's also a Herald with a Rover V8 in it kicking around and a Cossie Spitfire.


Do some thinking and decide how you want to play it. Most will require and after-market ECU and most are converting a FWD engine into a RWD car, which adds extra complications and complications add money. I started with the MR2 idea, then Zetec but decided that wasn't for me so went Mazda.

[cook1e]

If you want fast, go for sierra cosworth turbo...  

This one is in a GT6 but doesn't actually need the bonnet bulge so would fit under a spitfire...

[thescrapman]

ferny wrote:

Has no-one go down the redtop/Omega 'box route?

Yes, he even did the RBRR in it, was a regular poster on here, can't remember his name.. :-(

Height of the engines is the biggest issue with transplants into Spitfires.

Cheers

Colin

[thescrapman]

here you go, 48 pages to read through.

http://club.triumph.org.uk/cgi-bin/forum10/Blah.pl?m-1119971687/s-all/

As he has closed his acct, all the photos seem to have disappeared.

Dates back to "those" days, so lots missing from the thread.

Still can't remember his name!

[Nick Jones]

Ray Passell.  2000E?  Met him several times - very determined man!  There were alot of uninetended consequences to be overcome on that build!

Going back to the OP question - I really like the all alloy Zetec SE (1.6 from Focus/Fiesta or 1.7 VVC from Puma).  Very light and compact, powerful for a 1.6 in standard trim and very tuneable.  Also very cheap and available at present.  Only downside is needing a special bellhousing to mate with a T9 gearbox.

Nick

[Clive]

There is a t6 build on here with the all alloy zetec. I think they will easily make 150bhp with suitable injection and a few tweeks.
I am fitting the heavier 1.8 zetec, it was available with rather tasty efi setup at a good price, and should easily exceed 150bhp on a pretty std engine. 2litre another 10-15 bhp. These will bolt straight up to a type 9 box.

The thing is getting everything to work together. Mx5 in 1.8 should be a good choice using all the std efi. That will be a very economical build. (The efi setup on my build cost the chap nearly 3k!!! But could be done for about 1k with a bit of effort)

As to axle, a few choices but the triumph one should be OK up to 150bhp. Front suspension is excellent anyway, so fit gt6 brakes or a vented disc and aftermarket calliper.

[MK3]

Thanks for the comments guys, very useful stuff.

Do any of the Zetec engines mentioned need a lump in the bonnet for clearance ? Is the 2.0 worth the extra 15 bhp, I presume it's heavier than the 1.8 ?

If I went the MX5 or Zetec route any idea what front coil springs it would need ?

I assume GT6 front brakes are better than the Spitfires or aftermarket as you say, what about the rear brakes .. is there an easy disk brake option from another car ?

Any changes needed to the rear spring setup or height ?

Did anyone put on wider rims and tyres if so what hubs can be used and would they need bodywork changes ?

If at all possible I'd like to use easily sourced parts from other cars rather than specialist solutions

[ferny]

MX5 1.6 - 95kg
MX5 1.8 - 120kg
Gearbox is about 49kg I think.

[Sorry, link no longer available]
1300 late - 125kg
2.5l PI - 183kg
1850 Slant 4 - 132kg
2.0l Sprint I4 - 140kg
3.0l Stag V8 - 202kg

Spitfire 3-rail non-overdrive gearbox - 34.5
TR6 overdrive gearbox - 41.1kg


I'm fitting a 1.6 Mazda engine and 'box and keeping my 1" lower 500lb springs. The engine has been lifted in and out loads and the car rolled around without one in it so it hasn't settled yet. Without the bonnet on it looks just as low as it did before. So although it's not as powerful as the 1.8, 2.0 or the Zetecs it's lighter, plus mine''s fitted low and far back which should help.

[Martins Stag]

Don't forget its not just about BHP but don;t forget Torque? I still think that the 2.5 is still the best engine and the engine keeps the front end on the ground at high speeds. None of this front end going light rubbish!
Try and get yourself a ride in one if you can?
Don't forget they sound better than a 4 cylinder too!

Martin

[Clive]

I had a zetec spit, and after a mishap building the current one. First one ran std spit 1500 diff, rear shafts and brakes. That was all fine. At the front gt6 brakes. Front springs were 480lb lowered from moss, and worked well. But the zetec is about Tyne same weight as the spit engine, so spit springs work but stronger is good.
Current build uses the Nick Jones cv rear, with mgf disc/callipers plus a homemade calliper bracket. I hope all the extra effort is worthwhile. But the std setup worked pretty well.

[CHRIS211083]

Hi Im doing the Zetec se conversion. Its very cheap, needs no mods to the chassis and only minor mods to the tub. The most expensive part is the bell housing which in £200 from shawspeed or RWDmotorsport. Everything else can be done cheap. For more info read my thread in the specials section or pm me for specific details. I even have a spare set of engine mounts. Every thing else can be bought off the shelf.

Chris.

[Tim Bancroft]

After driving in moderns, I think it is nice to drive a car with an older style engine.

I have driven a Triumph 2000 mk1 with a tuned 2000cc six triumph engine but fitted with ECU controlled ignition and fuel injection and found the car to be almost modern in comparison with my own 2.5. The only ageing factor being the wind noise and some nvh.

I think a Spitfire with a 1300 Triumph engine megajolted etc would be a great car to drive and not alot slower than a Spitfire with a modern engine.

Otherwise, I think a super lightweight Spitfire fitted with a Type 9 box and 1.0 Ecoboost engine would hard to beat. Ford's Ecoboost 123bhp engine is now very common and must be appearing in scrappies throughout the land.

[Gt6s]

timbancroft61 wrote:

I have driven a Triumph 2000 mk1 with a tuned 2000cc six triumph engine but fitted with ECU controlled ignition and fuel injection and found the car to be almost modern in comparison with my own 2.5.

In total agreement with that statement, full engine management modernises an old Triumph engine. Don't rule it out.

[rotoflex]

It would be a shame not to have the wonderful & justly-famous Triumph 2.0 I6 if the opportunity came.
It's heavy, but others have done it, & with modern fuel injection & engine management it would likely be a joy.

[MK3]

2402 wrote:

Hi Im doing the Zetec se conversion. Its very cheap, needs no mods to the chassis and only minor mods to the tub. The most expensive part is the bell housing which in £200 from shawspeed or RWDmotorsport. Everything else can be done cheap. For more info read my thread in the specials section or pm me for specific details. I even have a spare set of engine mounts. Every thing else can be bought off the shelf.

Chris.

Hi Chris
I just had a chat with my local garage and they recommended the same solution, 1.7 all alloy Zetec SE from a Puma 123bhp standard weighing in at just 90Kg and it looks small enough to fit without a lot of work. Can use the ECU and wiring harness from the car too. Add a Swirl pot and fuel line return to the tank etc. And it can be tuned further if needed up to 200bhp but 150bhp would be ample so it doesn't blow the diff

I will have a read of your thread and get some more info

Are Type 9 gearboxes still the way to go with the above bespoke Bellhousing or are there any alternative solutions ?

[ferny]

Type 9 will be the way to go. But you want one off a V6 Capri for the best ratios? Wait for someone else to confirm. That's one reason I didn't do the Zetec, gearboxes didn't seem that easy to come by in the ratio I wanted and it had a hefty scene tax as well. Everyone who has done that conversion has loved it though. :)

[Clive]

Yep, the 2.8 capri box does have better ratios, but also a longer input shaft. I had mine cut down (in a lathe!) It also has stonger bearings too, but the chap who did the work didn't think there was much in it.

Beware being sold teh geaboxes though, most long input shafts seem to be the std ratios or worse, from a diesel.
And yes, costs have shot up. 8 years ago £10-20, 5 years ago I paid £50. Now £150 seems to be the rate for one that works... So I am keeping my spares as a pension.

It is important to understand all this stuff too. Kitcar type site offer good info on using the std injection setup, but that can still be a lot of work, and you will probably need the keys and immobiliser stuff with the ECU. (generally the key fob is glued to the ecu so you retain a normal setup) Then there is getting it to fit, often requires a different plenium for the throttle body. But all do-able.
or use bike carbs and megajolt. Will release more power and should be simpler, but will require a session on the rollers to set up.

The gearbox will need a clutch release sorting. I have used cable, but chris has forked out for a CSC. Each has its merits (mine was very cheap!)
Lots of other issues need to be though of too. Speedo for one, though I got my spit speedo to work with the type 9 box, and was reasonably accurate.

[Bainzy]

Gt6s wrote:

In total agreement with that statement, full engine management modernises an old Triumph engine. Don't rule it out.

+1.

I'm not sure I'd want much more power/torque than my EFI 1500 engine has, it already leaves most normal modern cars behind given the car's good power/weight ratio.

[MK3]

1381 wrote:

+1.

I'm not sure I'd want much more power/torque than my EFI 1500 engine has, it already leaves most normal modern cars behind given the car's good power/weight ratio.

Hi, what setup have you got, a standard Spitfire 1500 engine with throttle bodies and MegaSquirt ? What BHP & Torque did you get ? If applied to a 1296 how would that translate ?

I think you'll have a different gearbox to my MK3 with OD so not sure mine could handle a big increase in power ?

If it could, can the ratio's on my MK3 box be changed to accommodate the extra ?

[don cook1]

I have been driving my daughter's Puma in the last couple of days. That's a fine 1.7 Yamaha (block?) engine there, small and zippy. As I drove it I wondered about it in a Spitfire or even GT6 body. Lots of them about as well. FWD though.

[Mallard]

What are the insurance implications of replacing the original engine with a souped-up modern one?

Presumably in insurance terms the car would not be considered to be worth very much?

[MK3]

Mallard wrote:

What are the insurance implications of replacing the original engine with a souped-up modern one?

Presumably in insurance terms the car would not be considered to be worth very much?

Good, question, so I just called my insurers and asked for a quote with a 1.7 Zetec and Type 9 box and uprated brakes and they quoted me an extra £77 per annum premium. So not bad at all.

Can't see it affecting the value of the car overall and the original engine/box could be put back in if needed for a sale