my clutch has failed yet again

[Fizzy]

im not even considering a recon box, far as i see its a waste of time unless i go the whole hog and go overdrive aswell. but thats mucho cash. as i said, the gearbox i have is mostly fine, no strange noises, easy gear selection, just want to pinpoint where those bits of 'brass' are coming from and fix the leak is possible. when i first got the car, i think i was overestimating how soon i could change from 3rd to 2nd, and the synchro ring may have paid for it. lesson learnt though. ;D

do i need to remove the remote linkage to open the gearbox lid ? or can it all come off lid and linkage together ? far as i can see it doesnt look like it, but thought i'd better check.

[Fizzy]

apologies for the lots of questions, you'd have thought i know by now ;D

as well as the above question, is it a good idea and /or possible to flush the gearbox out while its sat on the benchtop ? without taking anything out ? i imagine it would be a good thing to have a freshly cleansed gearbox with nothing but new oil in ? considering there are metal fragments swimming about, even after the oil is drained there must be bits left ?

cheers

[IncaSpit]

I would certainly treat the box to some fresh oil while its out. Check the clutch release arm pivot while you can, the pin has a habit of seizing or dropping out of the bellhousing, so that the arm is just sitting there and doesnt have enough leverage to fully disengage the clutch.

As the others said, check the engine backplate for straightness and make sure the spigot bearing is there.

As for the Capri, good ones are asking high prices now. The 2.8 is the one to go for but I would stay with the Triumph..

[sparky_spit]

I would be very careful about flushing the box out if you are not going to dismantle it. Certainly drain the oil and, if as you say, you are taking the top off, you could look to see how much crud is in the bottom. Get as much out from the top with rags, pipe cleaners etc, but without dropping any onto the working parts. If you are careful you could put some parafin into the bottom and this might help dislodge some crud, but don't swill it around too much or put enough in to touch the gearset or you might do more harm than good. In theory, the metal particles will have sunk to the bottom of the box and you don't want to disturb this "sediment" unless you know you can get it out safely.

In general, if crud won't come out easily, then I'd leave it alone.

[Fizzy]

IncaSpit - the pivot pin has already been lost and replaced bya  previous owner, though with a not particuarly well fitting bolt. i think this ill fitment could be part of my problem as i'll get to later. the backplate was almost perfect. i put a straight edge horixontally across above and below the centre hole, and it was straight. i put the edge vertically either side of the middle and there was a slight - about 2mm at most - depression in the middle area of the backplate. didnt look like much would come from it though. perhaps im wrong ?

and the capri, i want to get one before they start going too mental with prices like old escorts and cortinas. nows the last chance to bag an early fiesta or a capri before they go mental on value. im seeing cars i'd be happy with for much less than 1k.
heres the first pic :





after taking the clutch apart, it all looked fine. just as new as it actually is. other than that wear on the outside that you can see here :



is this normal ? my clutch has always rattled slightly in nuetral, should those markings be on that part of the clutch, or is the bearing sitting too close to it or something and hitting it while not engaged ? the slave cylinder was pushed forward into the bellhousing as far as it would go. could this be a problem ? also as mentioned, the bolt that is acting as the pivot pin is not a good fit, another possible cause ?

Mike - looks like the lot is coming out of the gearbox, fortunately im assissted by somebody experienced. so it shouldnt be a problem giving it a proper clean out and fresh oil. going to check the bearings and the 2nd sycnhro. everything looked in good nick far as i could tell.



might be a stupid question, but is this what it means when its a 3-rail gearbox ?



heres the bellhousing :




so basically, theres some wear on the clutch that to me doesnt look right but im not sure. the slave cylinder is pressed fully into its housing, the pivot pin is an ill fitting bolt, and the backplate is only minutely concave around the middle.

cheers

p.s - trying to look at all things brightly, while the interior is out i have found the leak that was making the passenger side into a splashpool - easily sorted with some silicone pumped under the windscreen seal, and im going to try get my tubular exhaust manifold fitted while the gearbox is out as it must make it much easier.

also, my revcounter tripmeter thingy wont count up. the milometer goes up, but not the trip one above it. any ideas ?

[Lord Sorbington]

Reminds me, I spotted a Capri for sale the other day, mk 3 Laser, I'm sure it had a 3 figure price in the 'screen.  Could be of interest?  Oddly enough, I was being followed by a T reg Capri S at the time!

Google Alan Chatfield Cars, Stafford and phone about it.   I never get around to stopping for a look.

Oh yes, good luck with your Triumph gearbox!

[Deleted User]

There appears to be some strange damage to the friction area of the flywheel.

Can you post pictures of both sides of the clutch plate iteself.

The "damage" to the fingers of the clutch cober plate are caused by the release bearing - did you replace this when you last replaced the clutch, or is it an old one.  Does it rotate freely when under axial load.

Also, are all four bolt heads that hold the flywheel on to the crank the same size - it may be an optical illusion, but the one at the 9 o'clock position appears to be smaller than the other three.

[herald948]

yamaha_fizzy wrote:

IncaSpit - the pivot pin has already been lost and replaced bya  previous owner, though with a not particuarly well fitting bolt. i think this ill fitment could be part of my problem as i'll get to later....

Wow, if it's half as bad as the picture makes it look, then it would be the very next item I'd address after replacing the clutch!

[Fizzy]

Kevin - that is indeed a slightly smaller sized bolt head, however the actual bolt is the correct fit and tightens up as well as the other 3. this isn't something i noticed till today. is it a problem even if its a good fit ? what flywheel damage are you referring to ? could be the camera picking up grotty fingerprints? i couldnt see anything obvious. ill get some more pics tomorrow, all these were taken this evening under camera flash

the bearing wasn't new with the present clutch, was new with the previous one. the bearing had only been in for about 3 months when the rest of its 'own' clutch was replaced with the present cover and friction plates. not having the right tools in the right place at the right time, i decided to go with the 'old' bearing to get my car working again, knowing the bearing had seen little use. was this  bad call ?

herald948 - what is a good suggestion to replace the bolt, other than a better fitting bolt ?

[junkuser]

Looks like the lever is contacting the diaphragm making those marks on  the fingers as they seem to be at a greater diameter than that of the contact face of the thrust bearing.

Is that the correct thrust bearing for the diaphragm type clutch?

Is the bearing carrier mounted correctly?

Is that the correct lever for the diaphragm type clutch?

(My experience is only with coil spring type clutches in Spits)

As has been said that pivot end has to be sorted.

[CharlieB]

Your gearbox seams to be full of mayonnaise, ie water in the oil?

[bodders1]

yamaha_fizzy wrote:

herald948 - what is a good suggestion to replace the bolt, other than a better fitting bolt ?

You will need:
2 of part number 129358 (bronze bush that holds the pivot pint in the bell housing without it rattling)
1 of part number 129412 (tolerance ring to centre the pivot pin in the end of the release arm)
and 1 of part number 129410 (pivot pin)

Some suppliers sell a modified pivot pin that is longer and has a circlip at the top end to stop it dropping out, should it work loose.  

[drofgum]

Fizzy,
It appears you have an ally bell housing. If this is true they were originally used with the coil spring type clutch, and the release arm that came with the bell housing is not the same as the one for your diaphragm spring clutch. This could be the cause of your trouble.
Although the pivot pin should be sorted to eliminate the play in the release lever I don't think it is your issue, as it usually leads to insufficient motion of the release mechanism rather than over travel. It looks like something other than the release bearing is contacting the fingers of the clutch cover. Is the release arm hitting the fingers? Something in there should show wear from hitting the clutch.
The "brass" bits in the oil most likely are teeth chipped off of the synchro cups. You can see the synchro cups between the gears and the synchro hubs. Your box has three of them. Check them for missing or damaged teeth, but don't worry too much about them as you say the box shifts satisfactorily.
Oh, and yes that is the source of the term three-rail box.
                                                                                    Cheers,
                                                                                    Paul

[BrendanD]

Is that just a 'highlight' or is the top of the bearing carrier 'rubbed' by contact with the fingers?

[Jason]

Does the release bearing carrier move about when you wiggle it? ie can you get up and down movement as well as for and aft? It looks slightly drooping in the picture. Also, when you say your clutch has "gone" what exactly were the symptoms?

Finally, are you running gearbox oil of banana milkshake in that box? Or were these photos after you'd had at it with some cleaning fluid and a paint brush??

[Fizzy]

Brendan - there is a very slight flat spot on the carrier at the top, however i cant see how it can move so much to make those marks. the ring of marks are exactly the profile of the bearing.

Jason - i'll go and check the movement in the carrier in a bit, but from memory, yes it does move every which way. i guess thats because of the bolt/pin. the symptoms were at first the pedal felt rough at the end of its travel, as though grit was stuck in the pedal mechanism. and generally felt wrong. then as i made my way home from my aborted trip, the clutch got heavier and rougher, and just before i got home the clutch had gone very loud. sitting on the drive idling, it was rattling a lot, and you could clearly hear metal being clunked about as you pressed the pedal, even with the engine running and my head almost resting on the rocker cover. i've never heard parts of a clutch move while being opereated, so something was wrong.

as for the oil, i thought banana milkshake was so amazing it could be used for anything ;D

i topped it up the day before so it was mostly new oil as my gearbox leaks. not sure why its bubbled, i started putting it in with a little oil can, but it was taking ages so put a funnel on an old hosepipe and let gravity do its thing.

im a bit concerned if this is a 'different' bellhousing. are you saying its Alloy or Aluminium ? or is that the same thing ? i might aswell weigh mine while its out, anybody know the rough weights of bellhousings ?

[Jason]

Fizzy - your bell housing is made from an aluminium alloy - so alloy or ali is all good. Basically you "should" have a cast iron one but the earlier alloy ones are lighter and therefore better. It sounds to me like your release bearing, carrier and the pivot pin are where your problem lies.

[Pete Lewis]

coil and diapragms have different thowouts , lengths and contact/ operational geometry is different , also disc are thiner on diapraghms than coiled. if you fit a thich disc to a diaphragm the fingers are set too low and realse connact is likely
the damage is due to some serious geometry problems causing excessive finger contact    
so check the relase bearing is for a diaphragm and check the disc thickness (lightly clamp it  up in a vice)   Pete  

[sparky_spit]

And, with apologies for stating the obvious, make sure the friction plate is the right way round (marked "Front" or "Flywheel Side") as the splined centre bush is offset and gives release problems if used the wrong way round.

Also, when eventually putting all this back together it's worth setting the slave cylinder fully out and then adjusting on the road (with the tunnel off of course) until you get the clutch bite-point just where you want it.

[thescrapman]

I had wondered why you didn't protest too much taking the gearbox in and out, now I realise you have an alloy bellhousing I understand... :-)

Get hold of the correct carrier (or at least show us a side-view picture of it) and we will know if it is the right one.

Also, I too have 1 odd bolt holding on the flywheel on my Mk3, so I am sure it is factory fit.

Couldn't say why though.

Cheers

Colin

[Fizzy]

i had never given it a thought, and being the only bellhousing i've ever owned, its normal far as im concerned. guess im in for a shock one day  ;D

its nice to know somebody spent some money wisely though.

i had a thought about the banana milkshake oil - i've got a friend called.....fozzy..........and he told me had let so much oil drip from his gearbox it was quite empty, and wondered if condensation could build up inside and mix with a full compliment of new oil ?

i'll tell him when i see him next, he must be some sort of idiot. :-/

[heraldcoupe]

Can we see a picture of your slave cylinder please?
Cheers,
Bill.

[Fizzy]

heres a few pics that might help....

i awlays assumed you pulled the slave cylinder outwards from the bellhousing to start adjustment. are you supposed to start with it out and adjust pushing it then ?









that little crack in the housing wont make a difference will it ?

puahed up to max



pushed down to max

[herald948]

yamaha_fizzy wrote:

...anybody know the rough weights of bellhousings ?

It was years ago that I did this, so memory might be a bit off, but I seem to remember the alloy bellhousing being only about 7-8 lbs. and the cast iron version closer to 30 lbs.!

Meanwhile, I'm also (hopefully not mis-)remembering that the throwout arm itself stayed the same, but the bearing carriers as well as the bearing were different?

[sparky_spit]

yamaha_fizzy wrote:

awlays assumed you pulled the slave cylinder outwards from the bellhousing to start adjustment. are you supposed to start with it out and adjust pushing it then ?

Depends what you need to achieve. Generally the further out the slave is, the lower the bite point is within the pedal travel (ie nearer the floor), and vice-versa of course. Assuming your problem is due to something that is making the release bearing always drag against the fingers then you would be better starting with it fully out and adjusting gradually inwards so that you get a bite point about midway through the pedal travel. A bite point right at the top of the pedal gives the indication that you don't need to push very far to release the clutch and therefore pushing the pedal all the way down is grossly "over operating" the fingers and diaphragm.

If your problem turns out to be incorrect carrier/arm/bearing/pivot pin etc then the above is less important, but is still good practice. **EDIT** When you get it all back together and working okay, drive around with the tunnel off and move the slave back and forth within it's limits and you'll see (well, feel...) what I mean.