panel update

[lloydpiestate]

COPY OF POSTING ON REGISTER FORUM


hi julian,

sorry but ball park figures i cant give, as the tooling for each panel complexity varies so much, plus the choice of material used to make said tooling, eg short runs, long runs, hammer form, press form, crash tools, draw tools, lazer cutting, finishing hammer forming req for flanges and recesses, scanning costs, mold forming costs, billit or cast forming tooling dependant on size of panel, inspection number req on eash panel, double or single impression tooling, cost of priming panels, diff grades of billit for finish, etc etc etc the list is endless lol !

lloyd

[lloydpiestate]

hi gang,

ive had the costing through for the :

mk2 front half wing tooling
mk1 front half wing
mk1 & all estates rear half wing.

prices were around what i thought, so no nasty surprises apart from the tooling for the inner front wing A post closurer panel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i have had costings for just wheel arch tooling also including lower sections, but the diff in cost is minimal, so im going for the half wing tooling, silly not to, and the rears will be sooooooo much better as a half panel than just an arch as 9/10 times the rear lower section also needs doing if the arch does.

to press a complete half panel costs near enough the same as to press, say, just a lower section or wheel arch, as the press time is the same, its only the cost of the extra metal ( about £10 ) that makes the half wings a little more expensive, plus also about an extra fiver for postage, so when manufacturer is underway, ill just be doing half wings to start with, so just use the complete half wing or simply cut out what you need.

kevin / alan have kindly put an article in six appeal this month and dale is doing the same for me in the ct mag, plus simon at triumph world is doing a piece as well, we just need to have a chat regarding what to put in it and hopefully that will go to print in the jan issue allowing me to reach alot more of the owners that i am not doing at present, also flyers went out at the nec. MANY THANKS TO ALL THAT HAVE HELPED WITH ALL OF THE ABOVE.

once triumph world goes out, give it a few weeks, and i can have a jot up of the orders that i will have had, allowing me to see, how much each panel needs to be sold for.

onward and upward !!!!!!!! yey !!!!!!

lloyd

    

[lloydpiestate]

simon at triumph world kindly gave me a call yesterday evening regarding the article he is doing on my behalf, many thanks to him, as it will enable me to reach alot more owners than i, as yet have been able to, it will be in the next issue hopefully, yey !!!!

right !!!!!!! you all want a price for these panels, so i"ll give you one, but its ball park and as mentioned before, much dependant on final orders after triumph world comes out, plus im thinking of just bitting the bullet and paying for ads to go into others nationwide classic mags and papers ( basiclly just pay to print the flyer i had done for the nec ).

i will be selling the panels at two prices, one price for you lot and another higher price on ebay etc, but on the adverts for the higher price ones i will be adding that said panels are available at discounted rates for club members, so hopefully encouraging non members to join one or both of our great clubs, sounds like a cunning plan dont it lol lol.

now, i am only a member of the reg and ct and only have dealings with them, and i certainly dont wanna alienate other triumph owners that belong to other triumph clubs, so i will have to include this discount across the board some how, ideas please people ?? !! i.e proof of membership etc etc

so here is the moment you have all been waiting for, the price, ohhhhhhh its nearly as exciting as christmas morning aint it lol

£250 to £350 per half wing.

i did say ball park !!!!!!!

those price are based on the projections i have done, should those projections go up, the price will go down, should the projections go down, the price will go up, simple as that.

even as andy said, if your car is not quite ready yet for wing transplants, buy some anyway so you have some ready, it will increase my order list and keep the prices down.

let me know your feelings please guys.

all the best
lloyd    

[Davemate]

Lloyd,
        Don't hate me, please  :B

At £250 each there's no way I can shell out £1,000 to sort out my 4 rusty arches.
I am so sorry to have to "pull out"
I'd rather tell you now as opposed to later on

Dave

[Richard B]

For MkII fronts thats a good price and should help get some of them back on the road.

[TedTaylor]

As I said on the Register Forum.

Other clubs have a price for parts they sell to members, and another for non members.

The principle is that the club or its members have had to put in a lot of work (in your case a MASSIVE amount of work) and you want to only benefit those who have been prepared to pay a subscription to join the club(s). People who can't be bothered to join your club(s) should not expect any club benefits.

If someone wants to get the benefit(s) of being a member of a club they must be prepared to pay the joining subscription.

This is the principle upon which the Spares group works - we check each application with the Register or CT to make sure they are members.

MUT

Quick amendment before dashing out to the Wyedean Group meeting,
Following the last Triumph clubs forum meeting it was agreed that the spares organisations for the clubs would get together to share information - I have been asked to have an input.  Of course if this means that members of all clubs would be treated the same for prices then my comments above should be read to reflect that I would support this.

[lloydpiestate]

dave,

dont stress it, i admire your honesty and for letting me know asap, thank you.
but dont be to hasty, those prices could well go down, please read on.

i have the article in triumph world comming out and im also paying to put the flyer in the ccw ( 1/4 page ad ) that comes out 8th jan, it will be next to an article they are doing on the 2000, so perfect for me !!! plus today ill be looking into doing the same in other classic rags, so thets just wait and see the responce.
perhaps i was hasty in giving out the price, but i get nagged daily for a price !!!

i shall try and put this in perspective as the work involved is massive along with the tooling, in fact each tool is so big, you would have trouble fitting it on the back of a pick up truck !!!!!! and the weight of them, is unreal, a fork lift is needed to move them around.

there is no cheap way of doing this, belive you me i have explored every avenue !!!!

each tool is around 25 - 28 THOUSAND pounds so for the three tools im shelling out best part of 80 k !!!
belive it or not, the tooling cost for just the small inner front wing A post closure panel was 28 k, simply because of the complexity of its shape, mad eh !

tr6 wings ( complete ) are available for £355, now bear in mind there were NO tooling costs involved as the heritage centre had the originals, so no 28 k was spent there, the only costs the supplier has is the pressing cost ( about £20 per panel ) and any lazer costs, but as they are the original tools, im not sure if any lazering is required, plus whatever percentage of sales they have to give to heritage, so that is a massive mark up and profit from what i can see.

my costs are, £25 - £28 THOUSAND,  plus pressing and lazer costs at £60 per panel, now do you all see where im comming from, so if i can sell a half wing for £250 i think thats pretty good, considering that the company that was selling half wings years and year and years ago wanted £215 back then, and we all know what the quality of them were !!

tooling costs for just arches was only a tad cheaper than for the half wings, so little in fact, in my opinion it was silly not to go for the half wing tooling, plus the press and lazer costs were ni on the same.

as it stands, i will have quite a loss on the tooling for now, but hope to claw that back over the years, and when the ads and articles go to press, who knows, i might even have enough orders to nearly pay for the tooling, and if thats the case, the panels will drop in price alot, im not doing this for money, im doing it to keep our great cars alive, plus i have 4 cars here that need panels, and i do want to restore our cars for a living and sell them on as "new" doing complete nut and bolt restos on them.

IN A NUTSHELL, WE ALL NEED THESE PANELS, BUT UNFORTUNATELY THERE IS NO CHEAP WAY OF PRODUCING THEM.

there is one manufacturer that can do them a bit cheaper, the quality isnt as good and you have to sacrifice one of whatever panel you want making to allow the mold to be made, and i cant see members allowing thier panels to be lost to enable this, plus the molds are only good for x amount of uses, meaning every next panel will be of a little less quality than the previous one, then after the x amount of uses you have to remake the mold, so to me, thats a non starter.

sorry to rant on everyone, but i just need you all to understand the process that is involved in getting these panels done, there is no quick fix, sorry.

any comments more than welcomed please.

lloyd

ive just read that back, dave please dont think this is a pop at you, as it certainaly is not, its just trying to convey the complexity of the task at hand.

[JensH]

Imagine what you have to pay for a new front wing on your modern....

I am still on for a RHS rear wing repair for my mk 1 estate, otherwise I would have to make one my self  ??)

Thumps up from here (Copemhagen)  8)

[Radders]

Lloyd,

Sorry, but you'll have to add me to the 'no longer required' list as well for the time being. Due to changes in circumstances/priorities I'm not sure of my future with Triumphs at the moment and you could see one, or both of mine up for sale in the new year.

Radders.

[nicmk1est]

sad to hear that radders  :'(

[lloydpiestate]

ditto , the triumph circle wont be the same without a radders involved, hope it sorts itself out. thanks for letting me know.

jens, cheers boyo.

more orders are trickling in, so the price is droping all the time  :)

lloyd

[lloydpiestate]

im gunna have a word with the manufacturer regarding the tooling for arches alone again, its too complex to try and explain on here, but briefly, if i can loose a flange / curve or two it drops the tooling costs a bit, especially on the mk1 rear if it doesnt contain the whole lower rear section, as that needs a hammer form jig plus manhours to finish it off where it returns to meet the rear lower valance, even after pressing.

if the costs between an arch and a half wing are only about £30-40 surely you would all prefer half wings wouldnt you ???

please let me know your thoughts.


classic car weekly advert is booked for the 8th jan as is the article in triumph world, and it looks fab, simon has done a super job, so my thanks to him again.


lloyd

[mikeyb]

5005 wrote:

the triumph circle wont be the same without a radders involved

ditto!

you can't sell Gertie, you've put far too much into her  :-)

hoping you can work something out, all the best mate .......

[thescrapman]

I'm wondering if his heart has recently been won over by much smaller cars...  :-/

[nicmk1est]

the mini-fever  8)

[Dion]

5005 wrote:

if the costs between an arch and a half wing are only about £30-40 surely you would all prefer half wings wouldnt you ???

Sure, I would rather have the half wing if < £50 extra.
It cannot be said enough: thank you Lloyd for all the work, preparation and investment in the presses, I (and my car in storage!) have been waiting for this for years. Looking forward to be able to buy my two rear Mk1 arches / half wings from you.

[lloydpiestate]

COPY OF POSTING ON REGISTER


hi steve,

not quite sure what you ment by your last posting ? and yes the tooling will be made properly, its 3 part press draw tooling and will never lose its edge, will last a lifetime.

if i get the half wing tooling done it can also do arches, full arches with front and rear lower sections attatched, plus individual front and rear lower sections, but what im saying is, to press ( after checking the costings again ) say, a full arch on that tool works out only £3.50 cheaper than it does to press a full half wing, as the process for both is exactly the same, just £3.50 cheaper as you are using less metal.

if i get tooling done just to allow full arches to be made, than as the tooling is slightly cheaper than the half wing tooling, then the arches will be £30-40 cheaper than a half wing, but we wont be able to have half wings, and to have two sets of tooling made, to me anyway, is silly, plus im not prepared to make two sets of tooling, as they cost alot of dosh.

so surely the half wing tooling is a no brainer, as if i only make the arch tooling, we will never have availability of half wings, the difference in cost is so minimal, surely that is the way to go ???????

YOUR THOUGHTS PLEASE ON THAT TOPIC, AS I NEED TO KNOW WHAT YOU ALL WANT

thanks for your thoughts steve, always welcome

lloyd

DION,
many thanks    

[lloydpiestate]

COPY OF REGISTER POSTING

hi mike,

half wings be will just that, half full wings running the complete length front to rear, including rear flange left at 90* ready to fold around the internal a post closure panel and including the front indicator housing flanges / rebates and holes.

steve,

thanks for clearing that up, but if there are any panels " not quite good enough " as you put it, i shall be having serious words with the manufacturer !!! lol.
the number of quality control checks are up to me to decide yet, 1 in every 5 , 1 in every 50 etc etc, but as the number of checks add to the overall cost, and as they are all done from the same tool and will all sit inside each other for stacking upon completion, any duff ones will be noticed anyway, im guessing ill have every 1 in 15 or so checked

john,

as you said regarding half wings, if you dont want it all, simply cut off what you do want, my thinking also.

complete full wings, again as you said, purely down to the cost of the tooling, and lack of a market for full wings, plus fitting a half wing is easier that fitting a complete one in my opinion and only in extreme cases are full ones ever needed .

also what alot of owners dont realise, is apart from the A post inner closure panel, the wing consists of 2 parts, the wing plus the top slam panel, thats the piece that runs front to back at the top of the wing, its only seen with the bonnet open, the bit where we all put our tools when working on the car lol !!!! so two lots of tooling need to be made, just not viable im afraid.

lloyd    

[thescrapman]

5005 wrote:

thanks for clearing that up, but if there are any panels " not quite good enough " as you put it, i shall be having serious words with the manufacturer !!! lol.
the number of quality control checks are up to me to decide yet, 1 in every 5 , 1 in every 50 etc etc, but as the number of checks add to the overall cost, and as they are all done from the same tool and will all sit inside each other for stacking upon completion, any duff ones will be noticed anyway, im guessing ill have every 1 in 15 or so checked

LLoyd

You would hope they might notice one that was a bit banana shoped as it came out.

The other advantage you did not mention with half wings is it will hopefully extend beyond any previuos repairs, especially if they have been done with non-triumph panels.

Neither of my Mk2's will ever be good enough to deserve new half wings at the front, and it would also spoil their patina of neglect.

Now the Mk1 does deserve some decent repairs to the rear wings at some point, and 2 new front wings.

Cheers

Colin

[lloydpiestate]

hi colin,

how you doing, well i hope.

good point about the half wings and it was one of the main reasons for wanting to do them instead of just the arches, and considering the small amount cost wise that the halves are compared to the arches,  just cut out all the bodges, crap, filler and rust in one go along one straight line, ( making joddling eisier ) and hey presto, gleaming new metal on your beloved trumbie, yey !!!

all i need to get sorted now, asap are the inner outer bowls, its never ending lol lol.

lloyd

[TedTaylor]

Also put on the Register Forum.

At the Spares Group meeting at Stoneleigh this point was discussed at length and the unanimous decision was that half wings were the way to go.

The points made were that:
1. If the arch has gone then the front and rear lower corners will almost certainly be gone and it is silly not to do the job in one hit.
2. If only replacing the arch because the front/rear corners seem OK ...... it is likely that in the future these corners will have to be replaced anyway so have the parts available.
3. If only replacing the arch ..... how far round people want will vary.
4. It is better to have one piece welded in to make a repair rather than three pieces.
5. A weld along a straight line (as in the top of the half wing) is much easier/better than a weld around the corner as in an arch  ...... it is shorter as well!
6. It is wholly unrealistic and not cost effective to make lots of sections.  Puts up the cost and if a half wing is supplied people can cut off what they want

Lloyd is doing a great job and putting in lots of time and effort - don't make it harder for him than it needs to be.

MUT

[mikeyb]

the only reason for wanting sections as opposed to half wings would be cost.  if the cost is little different then half wings are a no brainer :-)

[DJB_Harvey]

My own PI is in the bodyshop at the moment having a Nos O/S front wing complete with a Nos inner bowl after an unfortunate incident earlier this year .
My very experienced Bodyman doesn't want to do the job again , it's a marathon task ! He says if the wings good on the top ... DO NOT Disturb ! Instead fit a half wing as he's done many times before . This wasn't an option with my own car .

[willows40]

lloyd

how about getting on with some sills, or even cover sills,
Do agree half wings are good idea, Alot easier than fitting complete wings, Only time complete wings would really be needed is when the box section between `A`post and where the strut mounts has rotten away

Cheers Andy

[TedTaylor]

willows40 wrote:

lloyd

how about getting on with some sills, or even cover sills,
Do agree half wings are good idea, Alot easier than fitting complete wings, Only time complete wings would really be needed is when the box section between `A`post and where the strut mounts has rotten away

Cheers Andy

Trouble with making sills is that they are available and will be difficult to sell unless undercutting the traders who hold stock ...... which wiil **** them off and discourage them from investing in other things.

I am on the chase of a stock of the part cover sills that I have heard about - the vertical curved bit without the nose which most do not seem to have anyway - and the previous ones sold have apparently fitted OK ......  A panel suppliers obsolete stock - not sure how many but if they materialise they will be cheap, especially to Spares Group members!

Ted