safeguarding the future of the RBRR

[JohnD]

After being flamed on Facebook for the following, I would like to make my position clear:

I've done the RBRR twice, not this last time and each time in a three man team.
I've done the 10CR in a two man, when we gave up and found a campsite as we were too tired to drive any more.
CT has realised that the 10CR needs to be safeguarded against tiredness, has built in an overnight stop and sleep, and no longer starts in the UK!  Isn't it time that the RBRR was safeguarded in the same way?

In two man teams, each must drive at least 24 hours in the 48, 12/24.  A commercial driver is not allowed to drive more than 10 hours and must have at least 10 hours before they drive again (https://www.gov.uk/drivers-hours/gb-domestic-rules)   Since the last RBRR, the thread here on the "Buzz" afterwards has included at least half of the posts commenting on how their sleep has been disturbed by the event.    One was told that he was "dead inside" and attributed that to exhaustion, another on Facebook that he had gone into a service area on the way home from the RBRR and fell asleep before they could get out and go for a coffee.

The RBRR is allegedly based on a test route used by Triumph in the day.  The first under the CT banner was in 1966,  but it has been a charity fundraising one since 1990.  Fifty, or twenty six years, you choose, but UK roads and driving conditions have changed a lot in that time, mainly towards being more crowded and more regulated.     To safeguard the RBRR for the future, I think that CT should look critically at how to keep it as safe as possible.

What evidence there is shows that as people 'wind down' after the event, their sleep and tiredness is affected, probably most as they leave to go home.  It is our own responsibility to take that into account and maintain our driving vigilance at such a time, but as organisers, CT may also have a duty to enable that.   If there ever is a serious traffic incident involving a home-going RBRR team then the Police might ask some awkward questions, of the driver and of CT.

  I do NOT suggest that the 'signature' Round-Britain-in-48 hours be changed.  I suggest that a period be allocated after the return to the Start before the presentation of fully signed log books, as is the practice at Control Points.   Perhaps certificates of completion, not given at present - wouldn't those be nice on your wall?   The teams would be encouraged to rest, either in the cars, in rooms at the finish venue, or just on mattresses in a tent.   Commercial drivers get only 45 minute breaks after 4-5 hours behind the wheel, so one to two hours might be more appropriate here.      Time for this that still allows people to get home on Sunday night could be achieved by an earlier start on Friday.  This would not be a penalty, as at present few can arrive at the Start in time, and not take leave from work.     Take Friday off, to start the RBRR at 1600.  

Then, the Club has at least the defence of due diligence, in requiring participants to take a rest break before they carry on driving to get home again.    

Please discuss this proposal, preferable avoiding mention of Health & Safety madness, nanny state, and personal liberty.  It's the future of the RBRR that I want to safeguard!
John

[Clive]

John are you aware of what happened at the finish this year? Crews were fed and watered, giving a decent break. And it was very refreshing.

Different crews do different things, but certainly a number were booked into local hotels. Us included. But some crews live pretty close to the start too. And some people were met at the finish by spouses etc, so I am guessing they had a driver to get them home.

Very difficult to impose anything once the event is finished, and I understand your intentions are sound. But there are a lot of variables. Maybe the new crews are the ones who need guidance, which I believe they do get.

[AlanChatterton]

The current set up of the RBRR is just fine, it does not need changing.

Different people have different levels of skill and abilities, and anyone considering this event for the first time, gets lots of help and guidance and advice.

I have now completed 10 RBRR's, so I think I am now classed as experienced.

I don't see how you can mandate the start and finish procedures.

Start at 16.00, to ensure people take the day off before? Thats assuming everyone works monday to friday 9-5, which lots of us don't. You could do this, but have someone come off nights finishing that morning, doesn't help does it?

As for the end, I think most crews, me included, that have more than an hour or so to get home, stay over Sunday night. The rest, food and wind down this year was just great.

Teams of 2 or 3 etc, I would not do it with a team of 3, ever. I always do it as a 2 and I enjoy it that way. Any mandate to ensure teams of 3, effectively eradicates all the small chassis cars like Spifires, GT6 and TR range.

This event has been running for 50 years now, with pretty much the same format. (Friday evening start, about 2000 miles in 48 hours with control points) and we have NEVER had an accident or injury relating to tiredness. This being the case, I don't see any reason to change it.

I drive about 45,000 miles a year for business. I get tired. I stop. I sometimes have a little snooze, why not, safe thing to do.

The comments on facebook about someone falling asleep at the services were taken out of context. What was said was that when he woke up, from having a nap in the car, he saw a fence in front of him as he was parked up, and in his just awoiken state was convinced he was still on the run. Quite funny if you think about it.

If we start prescibing start and finishing procedures, it will kill this wonderful event.

Please leave it as it is.

[DaveKent]

John Davies, how about joining the organising team for the next RBBRR;  all of our problems and infringements could be quickly and easily ironed out.
Also I would suggest that entrants be careful what they post on FB and the forum as clearly they are being quoted out of context, and this could be dangerous at worst, detrimental to the event at least. What a shame.

[JohnD]

Dave,
Yours is exactly the kind of response I expected, feared, and that CT and the RBRR doesn't need.    
"if you're so clever, do it yourself" and "Nobody say anything".

On the first, if asked in a constructive, not dismissive way, I would be glad to serve the RBRR administration.

Even better would be a sensible response, perhaps telling how this had already been investigated, risk analysis done, questions asked of lawyers or police, that some tbinking had been done.   it would be good to know that the admin were on top of this, which otherwise could stop RBBR continuing.

John

[Ellis]

Guys

Before we start getting into what is "allowed" on the road etc... EVERYONE has a responsibility to not drive if they feel they are THAT tired, and that they are not in control...

I've done the event as a two man crew, and three man crew. Yes it's easier as a three man crew, but to be honest, by the time you get to Sunday afternoon, you're over the worst of the tiredness from the night before, it's more about discipline within your team to ensure people are sleeping when they need to. If you can't control that, then maybe you should look for another event.

Tim and the team spend a lot of time and effort working with the MSA to ensure the event is within the regulations laid out for a long distance touring assembly, and that appropriate breaks are built in to satisfy that.

I suppose what I'm saying John is acknowledge your concerns, but I think appropriate steps are already taken for the entrants to be sensible about their safety. Everyone has a responsibility to themselves and other road users to get home in one piece.

Cheers

Ellis Stokes
Competitions Secretary

  

[Steve28]

Just a short piece from me, i was looking forward to do the driving through wales from the start but when we was at that point on the run i was quite tired so my son who had had some sleep prior to it took over the driving duties for that stage of the run, i would not of carried on and put my son, myself, others on the run or the welsh residents in that area at risk just to of driven that part and i think all the crews on the run would of acted the same way anywhere along the route. As well as its a fun run i think most if not everyone knows to be sensible.

steve

[Velocita Rosso]

The short and sweet answer is, ....that its the RBRR organising team that consider all options, whether it be on safety or whatever reason, on running this event......and with the MSA blessing.
That should be the end of the discusssion

[DaveKent]

Thank you for you thoughts John.  I, for one am glad that you have all our best interests at heart especially as I struggle to think for myself.

[mikew]

For the past few RBRR's I have driven home to Birmingham afterwards.  We always allow two to three hours after the finish before we do this.

Pre event we plan driver change overs, - it never happens as planned, because they change dependent upon the Driver's ability to drive safely, sometime longer stints, sometimes shorter.

We know our limits and drive accordingly.

The event is as safe as it can be, you can never regulate for the "dumb" as they will always ignore sense and the rules, and this is not the organiser's fault - rest  breaks are set out and enforced at the control stops.

Its worked for 50 years, is that not good enough ?  Its like trying to regulate for bad driving, how can you do this ? I thought this years RBRR exhibited a lot better driving skills than previous years, and bar one incident I witnessed (when Anne was driving within a mile of Lands End) other drivers were considerate and careful. Although she did get an apology from the driver concerned when she discussed his driving with him at Lands End !

Leave the event alone and look forward to the next one.

[JohnD]

Thank you, Ellis!

THAT, was the response I hoped for.  I'm glad tha tthe RBRR is in safe hands and will continue to be, as long as they consider how things are today, not for the last fifty years.
John

[Hogie]

Hi Folks,
          never ignore critisism. Some people call it feedback.
If feedback never happens then one can become complacent and that is where disaster lurks.

Take heed of what is said, look at what you do and see what turns up. Perhaps nothing, perhaps something.

Doing nothing is not an option.

I've done the run twice. First time in 2010 and I was very very tired at the end; but my co-driver was fine. We had the sense to change drivers before any issues.
The 2014 run turned it on its head. I was well awake at the end and at midnight still wide awake. My lad was knackered - so was asleep at the end.

Never a moment of danger. But danger always is around the corner.

There were apprx 40 two seater cars on the run. These potentially have the biggest problem.  But with planning and understanding it is easily workable.

Consider the statistics- how many prangs over the years. Is it increasing, what was the underlying cause etc etc.

You can only do so much to ensure your back is covered but do it you must.

Keep the event running. It is one of the truly great runs for anybody that wants to stretch themselves.

Roger

[Tim Bancroft]

This years RBRR was by far the safest that we have run since I took over in 2006. I was amazed as I feared that we would get some complaints, this fear being down to the number of cars taking part.

I did receive an email from a member of the general public complaining abut nearly being run off the road by a white Triumph motor car which had CT and RBRR stickers on the bodywork, the incident happening in the Bettyshill/Altanharra/Bonar Bridge area. Unfortunately, I have lost the email, I would welcome the chance to call the writer of the email to discuss the event.

Sadly, two cars suffered small incidents, but cars being lightly damaged and fully able to continue in a safe manor.

133 cars  x 2000 miles = 266,000 miles.

I understand John's concerns and whilst it would be good to be able to offer rest facilities, I cannot see how we can practically do this. Therefore as with every other aspect of safety within the RBRR event, we must rely on crews being responsible and ask them to act safely.

The point made about asking crews to rest up before the event is most pertinent, however, in these busy times most find it difficult to have time off before the event, not helped by the amount of prep that some have to do to cars after leaving it late to carry this out. I imagine the same story exists on the UK circuit racing scene, always hearing of all nighters being spent to finish race cars in time.

Please note that I contact all MSA RLOs and furnish them with the rules and regs of the event and so far have not had any adverse comment or request. One or two, coincidentally those in areas that used to hold road rallying events in the 60s and 70s, have asked me to contact the local Police to inform them about the event, I also send them an event risk assessment that I have drawn up. By the way I feel that I am able to do this as I hold some H&S qualifications after 30 years in the construction industry.

At the start of the event at Knebworth, we asked all crews to drive out of the grounds observing the establishments speed limit of 10mph, all complied with this, even though adrenalin was running high. This to me showed that the entrants of the event show respect for the RBRR. the Club and are able to act responsibly. No revin' Kevins!

Thank you John for this thread, I realise that it was written with the best intentions.

[Raider]

Quoted from Hogie

Hi Folks,
          never ignore critisism. Some people call it feedback.

Consider the statistics- how many prangs over the years. Is it increasing, what was the underlying cause etc etc.
You can only do so much to ensure your back is covered but do it you must.
Keep the event running. It is one of the truly great runs for anybody that wants to stretch themselves.

Roger

I can help with some stats as I keep them for the club's championships.

I have records for the RBRRs from 2006 to 2014.

516 cars, 6 accidents that I am aware of, 2 put down to diesel on the road, 1 blinded by oncoming traffic (these 3 being in 200 and one avoiding a kamikaze deer running into the road. As far as I am aware none were caused by tiredness.

From what I know so far there were no accidents this year so that would make the stats something like

640 cars and 6 accidents - under 1%

There is no evidence that I am aware of  that "prangs" are increasing in occurrence.

[shed66]

John's opening post is not the only time this subject has /will be raised...i even got asked a similar question .on the sunday morning ,by a photographer...iwas in the car park at the finish , early, as we'd retired from the event ..the organising team.of which i'm not part of, are always aware of this issue...and the event has evolved ..there are more controls...allowing  crews to stop....and giving them more opertunity to think about driver changes,,the''buffet '' at the finish this time gave crews a chance to wind down ..and ,with a bit of fore thought ..book a hotel and stay over
ive always done it in a 2 man crew...and as to the driving hrs ...you could easily do 4 on 4 off, not tiring at all that's 6 driving stints and 6 rest ..and if you only sleep for half of the non driving sections you get 12hrs kip over 2 days ...that's hardly taxing ..there are a multitude of ways it can be done ..but working /knowing what's best for you and sticking to it is essential

[Nick Jones]

It is a valid question to be asked.  Alot of people (general public, even car-people) find the concept quite incomprehensible and ask about driver tiredness and road safety.  On the face of it, it does seem quite mad - and yet it works - and is clearly addictive for many!

As to whether it is taxing or not, one key, personal question is whether you are able to sleep in a moving car, whether semi-prone in the back of a big saloon or sitting near upright in something smaller.

For myself, I did it as a two man crew in 2008.  The weather was often very poor.  Thoroughly enjoyed the first half, but Gordano onwards was an ordeal.  Common sense would have had us going home at that point (we were even near home) or on the Sunday when we passed near home again - but we didn't - we had sponsors.  We did stay near the finish though.  Neither of us were able to sleep or even nap much in the moving car (it's not very civilised and we are not good sleepers) and although I can manage one night out on the road without sleep - two is too many.  For that reason neither of us will do the event again - at least not as a two-man team in a Vitesse convertible. I know there are those who can sleep in a moving Vitesse convertible, or even a side-screen TR, my respect - and envy!  They are better suited to the event than I.

I'm happy to participate as a marshal and get a small portion of the buzz without the suffering!  Marshalling late in the event usually serves to remind me why it is I'm not doing it (the zombie effect!) though I have to say that most seemed to be in pretty fair condition at Dartmeet this year, in contrast to some previous years.

As for the 10CR, I'm a bit sorry that there will not be one overnight leg as it does add something to the experience and serves to cover the distance needed to get to interesting (hilly!) country.  One night is enough though!

Nick

[Raider]

Quoted from Nick Jones

As for the 10CR, I'm a bit sorry that there will not be one overnight leg as it does add something to the experience and serves to cover the distance needed to get to interesting (hilly!) country.  One night is enough though!

Nick

There can be if you want there to be one Nick.

I certainly plan to have the traditional first overnight run

[Wilfrid]

Appreciate the subject being raised, but have to support Tim's summary. I organised the first 18 events and took part in the first 14, always with a two-man crew. I think the long history of the run does prove that it is inherently safe and mostly exhibits a good standard of driving. Leave it to the organising team to see that this continues. Roll on 2018!

[JohnD]

After Ellis' post, thank you also to Tim and Martin, who from the RBRR admin have responded as I hoped someone would.
I'm also grateful to the others here who have accepted my best intentions in raising the question.

Long live the RBRR!
John

[cook1e]

Management of tiredness is part of the team aspect of the run. I've been on the run 6 times now and completed successfully 5 times, only one of these was as a 3 man team, every other time it's been in a team of two. I was involved in one of the accidents mentioned in Raider's post above as a passenger when we spun off the road avoiding as he put it a "kamikaze Deer!" it was actually a @kin great Stag with Antlers rather than a piddly little Deer BTW!. I confirm this had nothing to do with tiredness, on the contrary, the driver would have probably hit the Stag if he wasn't properly alert and if he had been tired.

It's definitely easier as a team of 3, but with some common sense it's achievable and safe as a 2 man team. The important things are, firstly to always plan a change of drivers at the next control and secondly to recognise driver tiredness between, I have on many occasions said to my co-driver, I need a break can we swap please  between our planned swaps . Also when I'm the passenger I will ask the driver every now and then on route how he is feeling and does he need a swap. Done this way it works and it's safe.

I have when in the GT6 which is faster been able to reach some controls especially the overnight ones very early and for the whole crew to get some sleep before the control opens, this isn't possible in a slower car like my Dolomite so actually I reckon running a two man team is tougher in a slower car.

I stayed overnight after the finish this year for the first time and must admit it was a well spent 40 quid to get a room in a local premier inn, I think this is something that ought to be suggested but not mandated in the info supplied for the run and also at the drivers meet. Not only did I feel refreshed for the drive home in the morning but it was also good to wind down over a couple of beers with some of the other crews in the bar after the meal at Knebworth, notice I said a couple of beers, I certainly wouldn't advocate a session drink at the end!

[Tim Bancroft]

I stayed overnight after the finish this year for the first time and must admit it was a well spent 40 quid to get a room in a local premier inn, I think this is something that ought to be suggested but not mandated in the info supplied for the run and also at the drivers meet. Not only did I feel refreshed for the drive home in the morning but it was also good to wind down over a couple of beers with some of the other crews in the bar after the meal at Knebworth, notice I said a couple of beers, I certainly wouldn't advocate a session drink at the end!

The above from Andy's last message.

Not sure how we can mandate such a thing, we do not control people. Within many of the email bulletins we sent out to entrants, we stated that the Novotel at Stevenage would be available for crews to use, many took up this opportunity or booked into the local Premier Inn as done by Andy. However, as stated above it is up to people to look after themselves. Why not book everyone into a local hotel and include the cost, again, not practical as many have to get home and of course entry fee for the event would have to go up by at least 50%. Surely, this is all down to common sense?

[Stuart Wilson]

Quoted from timbancroft61

Surely, this is all down to common sense?

Indeed it is but modern society appears to not let people have common sense any more.

In my eyes it is quite simple, if tired swap with other driver if both tired stop and both rest. Everyone who takes part are sensible adults who should be able to make the correct decision at the time.

The three times we have started the event we have stayed the Thursday night so we are relaxed and not done any driving to get to the start, it does help. Both times we've finished we have stayed on the Sunday night. For us that is all part of the event, plus we do live about 280 miles away from the start. But if people live within an hour or so of the finish be very unlikely they will stay the night. If it was part of the run that you had to stay as Tim says it puts costs up, which in turn then might reduce the number of people wanting to do it.

As the saying goes "If it isn't broken don't fix it"

[Andy Flexney]

Quoted from timbancroft61

we do not control people. ...

And this is just the problem. Our society today expects each individual will be able to blame someone else or institution when something bad happens even if it was them that caused it.  Nobody, today, is expected, or expects to take responsibility for themselves anymore.

Successive governments have managed to create a big brother society where we are all protected ( by CCTV and when something goes wrong we can blame someone else.

We need to stop wrapping people in cotton wool and make it clear to them they are responsible for their actions not the organiser or the club or the government or anyone else for that matter. If you are in a traffic jam don't blame other people. You are also part of that jam and it is you, and only you, who decided to be there at that particular time. In other words it was your decision to be in that traffic jam, live with it!

I was at the signing on this year and every team was asked to sign that they had read and understood the disclaimer. Surely that should be enough for people to realise they are responsible for themselves and do not need any further guidance from teh club or anyone else.

AndyF

[cook1e]

Exactly Tim, we can't mandate that people stay over but can suggest it's a good idea to consider.

[Hogie]

Hi Martin,
           that is excellent.

Roger