heraldcoupe Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 It's a long time since I've had to do this, just wanted a little input before I damage something.Engine is a DG series 1300 in my Toledo.I've previously stuffed nylon rope into the bores, then turned the engine over to release a stubborn cylinder head. This one's slightly different in that all the studs are out bar two, at opposite ends on the righthand side of the engine. Both of these are absolutely solid, I've managed to break off the top of the front one with a stud extractor.I'm concerned about causing damage in the bottom end if the studs don't give, how likely is this? The only other option which comes to mind is drilling out the studs, not one I'm keen to pursue. Any other suggestions?With a slightly stubborn stud I'd be less apprehensive, but these don't want to go anywhere. Cheers,Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveKent Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 build a little funnel around each stud, and fill it with diesel, leave it to penetrate overnight, try again tomorrow??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Cureton Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Bill, I know there is an element of risk but I would be inclined to try and drill them with a 6mm drill bit, the heat generated will probably relese the studs anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard B Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 heraldcoupe wrote:I'm concerned about causing damage in the bottom end if the studs don't give, how likely is this?Would'nt have thought that would happen. If it did I'd Helicoil the threads.Tried either a 3 lobe stud remover or welding a nut on? The het helps shft things. I've never tried Diesel, I've always used Hyperclean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Jones Posted July 10, 2011 Share Posted July 10, 2011 Might do better filling with phosphoric acid - those two are most likely rusty.I'd be tempted to have one last go at that back one by welding a nut on the top....... nothing to loose on that at this stage.If you are down to one that then gives the option to turn the whole head. Did this quite recently on my spare vitesse engine and unscrewed the stud from the block with head still wrapped around it. Only possible because the engine was on the garage floor at the time. Took some serious whacking to get that stud out of the head too. Had already welded nuts on three studs too (well 4 actually, the aforementioned had had the treatment but snapped off flush) - think it holds my personal record as the most obstinate so far...... Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heraldcoupe Posted July 10, 2011 Author Share Posted July 10, 2011 I've managed to unscrew an entire head on a Herald once, luckily it was just one stud at the front. Not so easy with a Toledo though!I'm reluctant to use welding or heat. I've only once had a cracked head on a Triumph SC engine, it was one where I'd removed a manifold stud by welding on a nut. Possibly a coincidence, but it has stuck with me.Richard - I wasn't so concerned about the threads, it's the possibility of bending rods, or causing other damage to reciprocating parts that concerned me.I'm certainly going to see what I can get down the studs before having another go. Lots of oil on there at the moment so I don't think applyingphosphoric acid is going to be possible,Cheers,Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
junkuser Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 If you do use rope in the cylinders it may be a good idea to put nuts on all the studs to within a millimeter or so away from contact to limit the amount the head can twist if it does break free of the studs.Would not have thought that the bottom end is likely to suffer but depends on how you go about rotating the crank I suppose and how near top dead centre the rope allows the piston to go. A few variables involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piman Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Hello Bill, I too would be concerned about damaging a connecting rod as the head is that tight. A matter of using 'reasonable' force if you go that route?Another, if rather brutal method is to drive a wedge into the head face, e.g. large screwdriver if you don't have a fox wedge. This has worked for me in the past and neither the head nor block were damaged, particularly as it is the extreme outside of the face. Once it starts to move some more penetrating oil down the studs again?Alec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Cureton Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 As a last resort you could drop the sump and pistons and try a block of wood and hammer from the bottom? I've never done this but might be better than a scrap engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gt6s Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 piman wrote:Another, if rather brutal method is to drive a wedge into the head face, e.g. large screwdriver if you don't have a fox wedge. This has worked for me in the past and neither the head nor block were damaged, particularly as it is the extreme outside of the face. Once it starts to move some more penetrating oil down the studs again?AlecI did a head gasket on a TK Bedford one time and had to resort to the above method even so I was only able to raise the head a little, Had to cut two of the studs with a hacksaw blade held by hand.OH WHAT FUN I HAD !Got the job done though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heraldcoupe Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 OK, I sprayed carb cleaner around the studs to degrease them.After that evaporated and the surface was grease-free, I ran some phosphoric acid down eac stud. With the sheared stud, the acid quickly drained down the stud. Good news that there's plenty of air between the stud and head, bad news in that the acid has drained down into the engine somewhere.......Lots of oil and carb cleaner followed to try and dilute the acid, or at least wash it down into the sump where it can do less damage.The rearmost stud has a well of Blutak around it, full of phosphoric acid, and it's going nowhere at the moment.More later I hope,Cheers,Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJM Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Sorry only just spotted this thread, use vinegar in place of acid. The vinegar is mildly acidic but not enough to damage anything other than acting as a freeing agent and easy to clean off afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotoflex Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 You have not omitted to bang on it, I hope?For stuck cylinder heads, after penetrating oil is applied, I usually put a short length (12' to 18") of 2x4 along the side of the head, whack the 2x4 with an engineering hammer, move down another 12", repeat, all around-ish. Then more penetrating oil and repeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don cook1 Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I got my GT6 head off by putting a 2x4 length under the head (can't recall exactly where now) and then jacked up the 2x4 and the weight of the car freed it off. I had a couple of studs that wouldn't budge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted User Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 heraldcoupe wrote:I'm concerned about causing damage in the bottom end if the studs don't give, how likely is this? Cheers,Bill.The infamous rope trick is effectively a manual way of creating a hydrolock', one of the best ways to bend a con rod.Some people claim it's perfectly safe and you can't bend a con rod, con rods do bend…Never needed to use it, should be left to the blacksmith school of motor engineering.Heat and cold along with plenty of Plus-Gas will normally shock the bolt loose - heat is easy, but cold? Nip along to B&Q and by some pipe freezer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnD Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I don't think the above is a Triumph con rod.But this is.Filling a chamber with oil and then giving the starter a kick does NOT shift a stuck on head by more than a millimeter. Then all the oil comes out, but not before doing this:JOhn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heraldcoupe Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 The last two examples are just what I'm trying to avoid.....I've worked some acid into the stud/head so far. Now soaking with oil, Plus Gas isn't something which you can buy in my particular part of the sticks, so like Brum I'll be off to the big city. Still a few days from applying any BF & I, which is annoying as this is my daily driver....Cheers,Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted User Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 OK, at this point I'm flashing up my big blow lamp and heating the head side around the stud and getting it hot, not red but really, really smoking hot. Try and keep the stud cool, wrap it in fibreglass/asbestos etc. If you've got any pipe freezer, spray the stud, try and keep it off the head and have another go. Alternate with liberal soaking with penetrating oil and spend maybe a day on it or until you get terminally fed up before plan B.Take hacksaw/cutting disk and cut off stud flush with head, centre punch and drill down full depth with progressive drills - with luck, the head will come free before you completely drill out the stud.Had a Sprint with two frozen studs that I had to resort to this level of brute force. One came out with heat, the other needed drilling.Carbonised oil is the meanest stuff to defeat when it seizes a stud - that stuff sets hard as glass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc1estate Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I must have just been lucky, I've never failed to get one off with a number three thor and a pry bar, hopefull keeping the pry bar on the head side of the gasket, working on the premise that if I do damage a head is easier to skim than a block, that said I been known to snap a stud or two using a roller bearing extractor and 3 feet of scaffold :B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heraldcoupe Posted July 21, 2011 Author Share Posted July 21, 2011 After getting the head off with a mixture of patience and ingenuity, I've ended up with one stud which is not giving up at all.It was broken off with about 4-5mm sticking out of the block. Two seemingly successful attempts at welding to it have ended up with the top breaking away each time, so the stud is now just about flush with the block. After 25 years playing with old cars, I've never had a simple head swap fight me so much at every turn. I purposely keep away from ally heads to save this kind of grief!Drilling it out is the next (and final?) option, so on with that this afternoon. Anyone want a Toledo with a half dismantled engine? Going cheap.......Cheers,Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smithy Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Blimey, if it's giving you that much pain it must be a good 'un, Bill. Off to South Cerney Engineering with it, and damn the expense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heraldcoupe Posted July 21, 2011 Author Share Posted July 21, 2011 More likely the entire engine will get binned, once it's out I refuse to spend good money on a large crank 1300!Cheers,Bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thescrapman Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Have you got to the point where you wished you had never started but a stubborn streak got to you and you refused to be beaten, and then wasted 2 weeks on it??:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Cureton Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Bill, I'm sure you will have done this or something similar before so excuse me if Im teaching you to suck eggs (where did that phrase come from?) . Start with a small drill bit (using a pedestal driller if possible) and progressivly increase the drill size until most of the stud is gone, you will then likely find that the heat generated will allow the remaining 'tube' to come undone relatively easily using a stud extractor. Failing that then you have to drill full size and re-tap, not the best option but it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard B Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Come on Bill, admit it. Its got personal! ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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