RBRR Only For The Big Boys?

[SteveJP]

4666 wrote:

When I spoke to a known specialist on here who had done the RBRR a couple of times he did comment on the fact that it is very hard to do with 2 people and that having a 3rd person on board makes all the difference.

I may do it one year.  As much as I would like to take the Stag, the fuel consumption would be a factor. But between 3 people... Plus it would probably work out cheaper than buy a small engines Dolly and making it reliable and testing it for it (the devil you know and all that) :).

I wouldn't say its 'very' hard, just challenging with two people :)

I see you have the ZF conversion on your Stag, why is fuel consumption an issue? ;D ;D
I did it with a BW65 gearbox and averaged just under 25mpg, split between two of us that wasn't too bad.

Why not try the 10CR first, a little bit less frenetic and you get to stay in some hotels :) :) Although you still have to cover around 2000 miles on the continent so if fuel is an issue to you ..........

[Velocita Rosso]

Did the 2010 event in the Spitfire and was a doddle,albeit it reminded me of Mr Bean`s Holiday ,gripping the wheel and staring straight forward.
Didn`t need to slap or pinch myself to keep awake.............when the wife took over I reclined the seats and was well away.........until she kept going down the rumble strips at the side of the hard shoulder on the M6 ??)
If the Spitfire can do the Ten CR then the RBRR is no problem for anyone
  

[Richard B]

Well my daughters have completed the RBRR three times, twice in a 1300 Dolomite and once in a Herald.


They cannot get insurance on the bigger engined cars!  ;D

[Stu 1986]

I think this run is something I might like to do when I eventually get my Herald sorted. I have looked at the route for the event and it looks quite interesting. Reading through the posts I have picked up on a few bits. The only reason why I would probably not be able to do this run would be the fuel costs. Even though I'm running a Vitesse Mk2 engine and OD in my 13/60, the fuel costs would be a lot. However the things people mention about not being able to sleep in their cars or being lonely when the other guy is sleeping is interesting.

You see I am a coach driver and spend many many hours a day driving round Europe, sometimes without passengers on board. Sometimes I may have my co driver but he/she will sleep when I am driving and vice versa, so that aspect would not bother me. Nor would the car's mechanical noises as the bunks on coaches are normally in front of or behind the rear axle.

Perhaps one day I'll get the chance to enter this event, but certainly in the near future its a not a possibility for me.

Good Luck to all entering in 2013's event!
Stu.

[JohnD]

Boring with three? How so when one of the team  is sleeping and the driver has the advntage of a codriver?
The fatigue issue has to be seriously considered.  As our professional driver friend above will confim the hours necessary for a two-team are way outside legal limits.
I will do neither RBRR oe 10CR again unless in a three-team minimum.   A five team in two cars could provide the samr same safety but be complex to schedule.
John

[ferny]

Stu, the next one is in 2014. Do it, but it's more about the personal challenge than the roads themselves. Some of the route is stunning though but I'm told they're even better in the day when you can see the views.

John, there aren't any legal limits on car driving. If there were I'd be out of a job.

[JohnD]

Of cpurse ther are no limits on car driving,, fernym, it would be unenforcible without a p[olice state.
But when limits exist and an club sets up such a run, then they should consdier those limits.

I know it's H&S gone mad, but that is how M'learned friends would look at it.

Swiss Tony here?  What does Our Learned Friend think?

John

[ferny]

Just like it's the drivers responsibility to make sure their car is safe it's also their responsibility to make sure they are fit to drive. There's no way the club would get into trouble for someone choosing to drive when they shouldn't. Just like I wouldn't get points if you drove my car and it had bald tyres.

[JohnD]

I know what you mean ferny.   I agree about individual responsibility, and I am sure (hope!) that the Club takes advice about how it organises these events so that it does not have vicarious responsibility, but they do impose a risk of fatigue in a two-team that I won't take.  Been there, done that, it's not acceptable.  For me, at least, so I'll only do enduranvce events in a car that can take three.   I've considered five-teams, with two cars, but the scheduling is complex, too complex for a fun event.

John
PS Not sure about me driving your car and you not being liable at all for its condition.   I thought that the old defence - it wasn't me speeding, going through red lights, driving while not insured/taxed/MoTed, it was Cousin Bubba - had been stopped as too many abused it, and it was the owner's responsibility now.  But I could be wrong.

[Alex]

John if that we're the case I'd be breaking speed limits all day long in my lorry as my boss would get the points!
It's the owners responsibility to declare who was driving at the time of an offence,if they don't its their look out!

[Goody]

As most of you know I have entered the last 4 runs.  Three times with a crew of 3 and the last with only 2 of us.   All in all I prefer a crew of 3.  The last run I was with a first timer.   I have no negative comments about my last co driver.  However as his first time he was not familiar with most of the area we covered.  Therefore it was a must most of the time both had to be awake, drive and navigate.  It did help that some of the route I drove I knew where I was going, but Steve still found it hard to sleep.  (OK maby my driving, but the excitement of the run, he was just geared up) Yes we had a sat/nav and we did follow when we could.  By Sunday morning we were both quite tired.  Had we not broke down, on to the finish would have been a struggle.   With a 2 person crew you must no matter what each get some sleep.  I am lucky that I can sleep in almost any car and noise is not a problem.  I know many do it with only 2 but, many are veterans who know what to expect and so on.  They are used to each other and can nap while the other is driving.  They also have a good idea of the route.  I also know of a group who had 3 cars.   This is fine if you can stick together and not run off from each other.   My point is their is no shame in any size crew.   Important thing is that you do it safely!   Know your limits and pull over if you must.   As a X long haul driver I know my limits, when I am tired and or getting sleepy.  I also know how tho recognize when my co driver is drowsy.    I will say I would do it again with only Steve as now he also knows what to expect.  I think we did very well considering we did not know each other till 2 days before the run.   Last important note, go over the road book, over and over as much as you can before you try for the first time.  Know where you are going and have a good map in case you get off course.   Study how to get to the check points no matter what.   I do not know if I will do the next one but,  like the last I would hate to see anyone drop out due to loss a a crew member.  

[Stu 1986]

ferny wrote:

Stu, the next one is in 2014. Do it, but it's more about the personal challenge than the roads themselves.

I doubt I'd make that one to be honest, I have every confidence my Herald will be on the road this year, however by 2014 I fully expect to be embroiled in my first house purchase with my girlfriend. We are both still in our twenties, and both working hard. I'm pushing 70+ hours a week at work and not getting a lot in return, she is currently living in London whilst she goes through the training process for her job. When she is qualified, and we've got everything sorted and the finances in line maybe then I can afford to have a go at this challenge.

For anyone who is interested EU driver hours for PCV and HGV are 9 hours driving daily, which can be extended to 10 hours twice a week. After 4.5 hours driving a 45 minute break must be taken before doing the other 4.5 hours. If you are going to use the 10th hour another 45 minute break must be taken. On a single manned vehicle you can do a 15 hour day, as you can do 5 hours other duties. On a double manned vehicle you can do a 22 hour day where you have 20 hours of driving each and the other duties is combined between the two of you. There may be some errors in my summary but it gives you an idea.

[JohnD]

Thank you Stu!  So for a commercial two-team, the RBRR is only just "illegal", and for a three, easily legal.  I thought that it would be much further out of whack.

Now, for comparison, what about commercial pilots??

John

[Wilfrid]

Stu
I have completed the RBRR fourteen times, always with two drivers - not a problem if you resolve to pace yourselves sensibly.
Wilfrid

[Howard]

Its a big challenge in a two seater, but there are plenty of us that have achieved it. The only really nasty part in 2010 was the driving down into Devon in torrential rain + a very long detour due to a minor map reading error in the rain and then flooded roads.

IMHO the worst problem is that we start on Friday evening, so with the best will in the world the team have been on the go for about 56 hours by the time they get back to the start. A couple of mandatory 3 hour breaks would make it a lot easier.

[JohnD]

Howard,
"A couple of mandatory 3 hour breaks would make it a lot easier."

In view of Stu's explanation of the legalities of commercial driving, that would remove much opportunity for criticism of the organising Club.  FRom what he says, a  two hour break is enough.
The Jo'G  and LE breakfast stops could be so arranged without making peole spend a long time hanging about.  If enough marshals were to volunteer, having a re-start ceremony, being flagged away as you complete your breakfast rest-stop might be fun!
'Proper' rallying!

John

[Goody]

All could be made to wait by simply not giving the road books back till a leave time.    Note, this would mean a early start or late finish.   It would also defeat the reason for the run.   I have to think only a few would use the extra time for rest.  

[Stu 1986]

I shall further expand on the EU hours:

Drivers: A Vehicle can only have 2 drivers on board, having a third is not an option and is illegal. If the vehicle is to continue it's journey after driver 1 & 2's 22 hour spread is complete then Driver 3 must meet the vehicle at the end of 1 & 2's duty and start duty fresh.

Rest: The 45 minute break can be splint into two periods 15 then 30 minutes to total 45 minutes. A Break can be taken on board a moving vehicle as long as no other work is undertaken. At the end of any daily driving/work in 24 hour period the rest time is 11 hours, which twice a week can be reduced to 9 hours. Alternatively, a driver can split a regular daily rest period into two periods. The first period must be at least 3 hours of uninterrupted rest and can be taken at any time during the day. The second must be at least 9 hours of uninterrupted rest, giving a total minimum rest of 12 hours. Where a daily rest is taken, this may be taken in a vehicle, provided that it has suitable sleeping facilities and is stationary.

Maximum Driving time: The Maximum weekly Driving time allowed is 56 hours. This is only applicable to the time when a driver is driving and does not include other duties like cleaning, loading or maintenance. (I do close to 70+ hours a week but will hardly ever hit the 56 limit)

I have given you a brief summary of the driving laws, the actual VOSA book on the law is 57 pages long.

[ferny]

Out of interest. What happens if you hit your hour limit when you're stuck in a really bad traffic jam for hours?

[Stu 1986]

ferny wrote:

Out of interest. What happens if you hit your hour limit when you're stuck in a really bad traffic jam for hours?

Stop at the earliest and safe place where you aren't going to cause a disruption to the flow of traffic or break any laws and begin your rest period. You would then make a note on the back of the tachograph disc explaining or like in my case with a digital tachograph, print off a reading and write on the back of that. There are differences between HGV and PCV though when it comes to hitting the daily limit. A Trucker in most cases has his bed in the vehicle, but I as a coach driver do not. Both Truck and Coach driver know when they will hit their limit, but I will have to call my HQ and tell them, and they will then dispatch a driver to meet me and take my vehicle over. This happens fairly regularly, normally when running empty.

Just as a side note: There is a difference between the hours a bus and coach driver use. Coach drivers operate on EU hours, but most bus companies like Arriva will use UK hours. These hours will allow a driver to run for 6 hours, have 15 minutes rest and then drive another 6 hours or something daft like that. Most Bus drivers operate on a 7 hour day, half hour each end of their shift for walk round checks and paperwork, and 6 hours driving.

[Deleted User]

I think you're missing the point.

The RBRR is a challenge for both driver and car.

There are plenty of other events that run for a similar amount of time such as Le Jog or the Monte Carlo Historique to name just two but there are also countless road rallies that run through the night.

Back in the sixties, a bunch of guys wondered if it were possible to drive round Britain in 48 hours.

Others have raced trains across France to London. (No, I don't mean Top Gear.)

Le Mans drivers can do 3 hour stints, as do drivers in other long distance races.

Without the challenge, what's the point.

Some of you may know that I'm taking up mountaineering - just as soon as they finish the funicular railway to the top of Ben Nevis!  

Takes the challenge out of it but at least I'm safe.

But hold on a minute, I've not checked the accident statistics for railway related accidents.

Maybe I'll just stay safe and cosy in bed all day.

It's not so difficult for two drivers to make it through the RBRR and loads of two man crews have done so in the past without major incident.

I've done two RBRR's in a two man crew and although we hit the "wall" on the M5 heading down to Land's End, a quick 20 minute snooze in a motorway service area was enough to revive me.

Remember, we're not driving HGVs but small, light cars.

The two are entirely different beasts and should be regarded as such.

Every year we get the doubters, the whingers and the holier than thou brigade piping up about how unsafe the RBRR is.

I wish that if they had nothing positive to say, as they have no intention of entering the event, that they would keep their mouths shut and not belittle this Club's premier event.

Many of these people are not even members of the Club for crying out loud!

Rant over.

Carry on as before.

Jim.

[Radders]

Spot on McJim. Couldn't have said it better myself.  :)

[mikew]

I hate to say this but I agree with McJim

[AlanChatterton]

mikew wrote:

I hate to say this but I agree with McJim

That must have hurt Mike...... better have a glass of Lambrini to recover!!


But, me too.......... totally agree with McJim. Without the challenge, what is the point.

Join in if you want to, if you don't agree........ stay away and leave our event alone.

[Davemate]

I did my first Rbrr this year as part of a 3 man team.
Well,two driving and one navigator !
With two of us shareing the driving but not having to navigate at all,I must admit I found it no more tireing that a day out. I was at work on Monday morning at 6am(not driving though).
After hearing all the stories about how hard it can I was a bit concurred about the possable lack of sleep,it may be different if all three of us had driven and navigated.
It was a simple case of drive---rest/sleep----drive and so on.
Our navigator on the other hand spent the hole trip "stuck"in the front passanget seat just cat napping.
I would think that no one would drive if they felt it was unsafe,I do think it would be more challenging with two in the car,but I thought that was why we do this sort of thing.
It's the same for all "racy"type of events, look at the "RAC" rally and "Dakar"thing !

Next time I must remember to take a coat,I have never been so cold for so long,as over that weekend.
Ps,
    apparently I snore !!!!