Spitfire MKIV Restoration Newbie.

[LouisW]

The radiator is fitted properly and how it was before with no problems, no pics I'm afraid. I understand that the bonnet isn't mounted and this will differ how it sits but I believe it should be lower at the front before even getting close to hitting the radiator cap.
I have fibreglass lower valances as well so I look forward to mounting them! I would have gone instead for a steel bonnet/ valances but the prices they were fetching were atrocious. I will have another fettle and try mount it on the bonnet tubes to see if that changes anything. Didn't have a proper play really, it's just sat on there but had noticed it didn't look 100% right.

Thanks for all the help.

[LouisW]

Cut away the rot and badly bondoed patches on the drivers side.  To me the sill looks almost like a replacement and it has some weird hard white bondo like stuff inside.  I can't get it out but I've taken a picture of it. The end plate was also only welded on in 3 places and rest bondoed/sealed up. This must have been done in the 4-5 years the PO had the car with only 9k miles on. Does this sound like MOT repairs? The outside of the sill is also in redoxide and nothing else down that side. Here's some pics from inside the sill. Also cut some small areas of rot away too.

[LouisW]

Removed the hardtop today for the first time in 30 years. It's missing some washers which I will have to buy as well.

Here's some pics anyway.

[byakk0]

Coming right along.

if you can live with the bondo inside the driver's sill it may be ok if you can get rid of the rust in there.
That said, if the endplate was only held on with 3 bits of weld, you may consider removing the entire sill and replacing with a new one- it does look like a bit of a bodge, if only a small one. The sills are part of the body's structural integrity, and you don't want a potential problem left there.

Also, you have a crazy gap between the bonnet and the door. Should only be around 1/4" or less. But it looks like the gap between bonnet and cowl there in front of the windscreen frame is a bit wide in places too. Could be just a matter of reshaping the narrow parts and adjusting it backwards far enough to close the gaps. Did you get the bit about why it is sitting on the radiator sorted?

[LouisW]

Quoted from byakk0

Coming right along.

if you can live with the bondo inside the driver's sill it may be ok if you can get rid of the rust in there.
That said, if the endplate was only held on with 3 bits of weld, you may consider removing the entire sill and replacing with a new one- it does look like a bit of a bodge, if only a small one. The sills are part of the body's structural integrity, and you don't want a potential problem left there.

Also, you have a crazy gap between the bonnet and the door. Should only be around 1/4" or less. But it looks like the gap between bonnet and cowl there in front of the windscreen frame is a bit wide in places too. Could be just a matter of reshaping the narrow parts and adjusting it backwards far enough to close the gaps. Did you get the bit about why it is sitting on the radiator sorted?

Well I will probably end up removing the front part of the sill to deal with some rust on the a post inside. I had to do this on the other side so got a bit of experience doing it so hopefully it wont take me as long to do it the second time. What I did notice however was that on the inside near the mounting when I crawled under the dash it needs some small patches as I can see daylight. How the hell shall I get to this? I really had to crawl under just to see anything with a torch and i'm worried it would be a safety hazard (although it is only a small area, but i see daylight). I will try get some pictures if it ever stops raining!

In regards to the bonnet, it's not fully mounted at the moment hence the bad gaps and hopefully why it's sat on the radiator. I have some bodywork to do on it, and I will be painting the inside soon enough. How do I go about getting the bonnet hinges in the correct place? The existing holes are fairly rounded and god knows who put them in originally so they may not be very straight. I wish my old bonnet was salvageable but the amount of repair panels needed don't make it economical really.

Another question I have is with the rear radius arm mounting brackets. Although not rusty, there is rust right next to them which I need to cut out but these brackets make it really awkward. Are they easily removed? Will it mess up all the camber etc at the back? I could attempt to work around them, but with it being so close to the seatbelt mounting I'd prefer this to be done properly 😀

Thanks,
Louis

[Bainzy]

Looking at the amount of rust on the inside of that sill (the bits that you can see, nevermind those you can't), I would be inclined to replace it with a new Heritage one. It's another £67 and a bit more time but you'll end up with a better looking job and the knowledge it'll be properly sorted.

[LouisW]

To be honest, I didn't think this sill was that bad, rust wise! The exterior looks to not have very much rust on at all, just silver paint. Besides, I don't have the money to spend on a new sill, or the bracing required to remove the existing one. I have been trying to make all the repair panels myself, but I will soon have to buy a rear quarter repair panel which will take up more money. Having driving lessons at £20 an hour doesn't help...

[byakk0]

Quoted from LouisW

Having driving lessons at £20 an hour doesn't help...

You're paying to have some teach you to hit a little white ball? lol! (Driving a car, I know 😀 )

Anyway, Do you have any photos of the two areas in question? I think I know where you are talking about but just to be sure...

[LouisW]

I do have some photos, on my phone though... which just happens to be dead! I'll try post them tonight.

Booked my driving test today aswell, 5th August. Can't wait!

[LouisW]

Took the hardtop off today and cleaned up all of the rust underneath it. Removed the door cappings aswell... need new ones really. Can't seem to find any NOS ones though. Have people had good experiences with the new ones?  
I then painted it, and it's looking more as a car now. The interior is full of grinding dust though! Needs a vac.

Here's some pics anyway.



Yes I know, it's the wrong triumph logo on the back panel. Was just temporary anyway, need to do something better with it at some point.

[LouisW]

Quoted from Phwoar

Might be I'm telling you something you already know but that's a triumph motorcycle logo on the rear cockpit panel.

Yeah I wrote that under the first picture. Was just something to cover the hole where a dealer speaker was put in.

[Phwoar]

Quoted from LouisW

Yeah I wrote that under the first picture. Was just something to cover the hole where a dealer speaker was put in.

I was flicking through your thread using my phone, missed your note, Doh! (whistle)

Keep up the good work.

[LouisW]

Easily done! And cheers.

[LouisW]

Well, started tackling the drivers door yesterday and today. Unfortunately I've found small holes on the bottom of the door and have had to cut out an area. Is this is an easy place to make a repair panel for? Has anyone done it in the past? I had to cut underneath off due to the level of rust. It could probably do with the whole bottom of the door replacing to be honest.  Would it be a smart idea to completely remove the door from it's hinges and carry out the work off from the car? Would save me from doing any upside down welding. My doors are sat almost perfectly panel gap wise and I dont want to lose this...

Anyway, here are some pictures.

[Phwoar]

Almost mandatory to remove the door to repair that kind of damage, welding that up would be a tough proposition without doing so. Might not be too bad if the car were on a rotisserie but even then I ithink I'd be taking the door off. If the car is off its chassis brace the gap before you remove the door, if the tub is still bolted to the chassis it shouldn't change the gaps.

[LouisW]

Surely with adjustment from hinges it will become out of position to how it originally was? I thought there was some adjustment in the hinge itself so taking it off completely will lose the adjustment made?

[junkuser]

Drilling small holes through the hinges, body metal and backing plate prior to removal will allow you to get them back in original position easily using a piece of wire or a drill of the same/similar size.
1/8th" drill is suitable.

[LouisW]

Discovered the sills have been replaced on both sides but along the top, instead of welding all the way along/ spot welding it's just been tacked in a few places then bondoed.







After attempting to weld all the way along, the gap is just too big for my capabilities and I just build weld up instead of across.

Something I did get done which was alright, was the other side of the bulkhead primed. I also welded in a piece of metal which needs dressing soon.



Found a nice glob of filler inside at the front too... Must have been over an inch thick.

[JohnD]

Louis,
I don't want to excuse a bodge job, which this looks like, but even in production, long joints are usually held together by a series of spot welds, or short length welds.   A long weld, like a length of railway line, elongates when hot, forcing the ends apart, or ddistorts the work.  It's better to put in a series of small welds, and rely on seam sealer to make the joint waterproof - even in the hands of an expert (I'm not!) it's hard to make such weld waterproof anyway.

JOhn

[Bainzy]

Original sills had 6 or 7 tack welds along the joint that attaches to the flat lower A-post panel. Definitely weren't seam welded there.

Where your sill has been bondoed along the middle ledge in the second pic isn't an original location for the sill to be joined. They've probably cut through an original sill, joddled it and added a new half- outer sill panel to fit over it. The original sill was one piece from the seam the door seal sits over, all the way to the bottom seam where it joins the floor at the bottom. Considering the sills are structural, that's a complete and utter bodge. A few tack welds there are not enough to provide the necessary rigidity, and unless you're able to seam weld the entire length of this without making it look a mess (unlikely because it's a right angle), you really need to be whipping that off and putting a new outer sill on.

[Bainzy]

Hopefully this makes it a bit clearer as to what I'm saying.

Sorry Louis but I think you've definitely hit a point now where the car needs a pair of OE outer sills to be done properly. I understand you're on a tight budget but you eventually risk hitting a point where it becomes a false economy. I know I certainly wouldn't want to be driving a car with distorted sills, or worse, weakened sills. The car derives a huge amount of it's structural rigidity from them and as anyone who's driven a rust free and correctly welded Spitfire, even then the bodywork isn't particularly rigid. I'm going to be a bit blunt here but I would rather have to wait longer to save up £140 for new sills and do the job properly, than to drive around for the next 5 years in a death trap.

[LouisW]

Thanks for the replies, you're probably right! I don't understand why when these new sills were put on, they were not the full size extending up as to in your first picture Bainzy. I knew they weren't right as soon as I started removing that filler/ underseal.

Strangely enough along the bottom seam the sills are indeed spot welded against the inner (which maybe was replaced aswell?) so why not do a proper job all the way along? I wouldn't say they were really "tack welds", more like 5-6 welds close together, but they don't extend all the way along which is the issue here. In my current position (on the drive) where I do all the work I don't feel I would be able to replace the whole sill. Nor do I have confidence in my own ability to put whole new sills on.

Do you think I would be able to take this somewhere to someone who would be able to weld all the way along to complete a seam weld? I understand new sills would be the correct way though don't get me wrong. Even as they are they seem strong with no cracking etc until I disturbed it, obviously 😀

Don't you just love these cars?

[Bainzy]

I think some of the fabricatio and welding work you've done so far is really impressive Louis and arguably more difficult, I'm not sure why you think that. You'd be leaving the body on the chassis to do the work so could still wheel the car on and off the drive.

The skill in putting new outer sills is more in alignment and patience, not so much the welding. The welding should be really easy because you can use plug welds if replacing the whole panel, which are easier than the seam weld you've been doing.

If the door gaps were fine before you took the car apart, couldn't you just tack weld some cheap steel box section to preserve the door gaps? That plus bolting your hardtop to it would make it much more stable, and the hardtop should act as a good jig to keep things aligned.

Alternatively, your local club may also have door gap adjusters for hire, or have someone local who has them?

[JensH]

Louis, the repair done on your LH sill could be ok; as John D states above, it would be difficult for even a skilled welder not to do any distortion on the panels if fully seam welded.

My guess is, that a PO did fabricate part of the sill; or bought one of the crap repro ones offered up in the 90ish. If not rotted out, clean up and use sealer at the upper edge.

If you want to put a new (heritage) sill on, brace the door and spotweld the new in. Depending on what repair is needed to the rest (i.e. middle sill, heel board, box section behind heelboard, lower a and -b post etc, its not that difficult.

[Bainzy]

Jens, that (first repair you mention) wouldn't pass an MOT in the UK. Any repairs to structural panels would have to be seam welded unless the entire panel is replaced in the same manner it was originally made.