Cyril The Herald (1968 13/60 Restoration)

[Cyril_The_Herald]

Cyril The Herald

Hi.  We are Rich and Kelly and this week saw the start of our first ever restoration.  We bought a lovely 1968 Triumph Herald 13/60 which needs quite a bit of work.  It's a non-runner, the bodywork needs serious attention, as does the interior.  The chassis is good though ;)

One area of the bodywork that needs repairing/replacing is this section in the photo below.  Now I'm not sure what section this is.  Is it the floor pan?  The sill?  The inner wing?  Any ideas?

www.OurTriumphherald.wordpress.com

[smithy]

Hiya!
I've no idea what that panel is. I've looked at Rimmer Brothers and Canley Classics web sites for you (where you will doubtless be looking yourselves soon - although there are LOTS of vendors to ring around, of course), and I'm trying to decide if M49 DOORFRAME BOTTOM REPAIR RH might fit the bill, or perhaps M75 FOOTWELL REPAIR - HER/VIT R/H. It may well be neither.
Someone clever will be along in a minute (Bill! Bill!) I'm sure, and tell you definitively.
I suspect you may also need help and advice from CT in the North or South Yorkshire groups; if I were you I'd make their acquiantance....
Welcome aboard and thanks for your web site too. It's marvellously naive, wonderfully "Rainbow" in tone (if you remember your old kids TV shows - and don't mind me saying so), and makes me miss my less cynical youth terribly. Please keep it up. Best of luck!

[Mark Hammond]

That is the A post.  May find it easier and cheaper to get a replacement bulkhead.

M.

[smithy]

^^ It is isn't it?
A bulkhead, i wonder.

[Cyril_The_Herald]

Cyril The Herald

Thanks for the replies - I guess we are not certain on how much work we'll need to do, we just know IT'S A LOT.

So, we thinking it's the A Post (which I guess is part of the bulkhead?

Thanks smithy for your suggestions on places to go (any your research).

Anyway - That repair comes later on.  First we have to get the bloody think started (it's turning over, fuel is getting to the plugs but just won't fire up - Going to replace the coil and then have a bash at a carb re-furb).

http://www.OurTriumphherald.wordpress.com

[Oggi]

If your trying to get it running first thing I would suggest as your getting fuel to the plugs (is the fuel new or old?) replace the points and condensor and rotor arm check the condition of the dizzy cap. They are all really cheap parts and the best place to start. If still no spark check the earth strap and replace the coil. I have been through all this recently with mine it's a process of elimination, mine ended up being the coil was on it's way out.

[Elma fud]

Cyril the Herald is rather sick, the picture you have put up shows the chassis side rail and a hole, which is surposed to be a mounting point between the bottom of the A post and the chassis side rail, but with your's this is completely missing lol and also the bottom of the A pillar has no metal either! This you will be glad to here is not uncommon which for a car that is quite often bought by people who think they are easy to work on and then are completely overwhelmed by the amount of work to put all the rust back to solid metal is the reason why there are so many unfinished Heralds still about :-/

[Cyril_The_Herald]

Cyril The Herald

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Searching Google for 'Herald Bulkhead' I stumbled across this image which shows the floor pan as having a hole in the same place I do. Would that suggest that it's my floor pan that's buggered?

Not sure what the "A Pillar" looks like - Would appreciated a photo so I can identify one.

http://www.OurTriumphherald.wordpress.com

[pimp my vit]

http://autorepair.about.com/library/a/1g/bl996g.htm

The above link will show you about 'A' 'B' and 'C' pillars unless you have some good welding skills that is a tough area to fix, also it is structural and useful if you ever have the misfortune to roll the car, I have repaired that area on mine but since then saw a whole replacement floor pan that will cover some of your hole, also you will need a tread plate panel and the bracket to mount to the chassis, my guess is if you buy these you can temporarily place them and then see what metal is missing, then decide what to do all in its quite a big job and as others suggested you might find it easier to source a whole new bulkhead, they do come up on ebay.

Anyway good luck and if I can help in any way I will,photo's etc.

[pimp my vit]

Sorry , link no longer available

Have a look at this, scroll down the page and you can see some photos of a repair in this area, also I think the last photo is the repair panel that available........

[dar]

cyril is ill,as stated you will need good welding skills to fix cyrill,if you cant weld it will be cheeper to get a new bulkhead keep looking on ebay,  you will fined a lot more rot  on cyril  as you go,have you taken back seats and carpet out to have a look at the rest , good luck with makeing cyril better,lots of help on here for when you come stuck

[heraldcoupe]

The area that's rotted out here is the edge of the floorpan and the bottom of the A-post. The A-post ios the vertical section which the door hangs from, while the floorpan is the floor (which is the obvious bit) and the horizontal area beneath the A-post which forms the body mounting.
There are good quality reproduction floorpans. the bad news is that while three of the four sides are formed as original, there is no attempt made to replicate the body mounting area. The individual body mounting brackets can be bought, but the structure they attach to needs to be fabricated. Alternatively, I understand that Chic Doig (triumph specialist) produces a panel which repairs this area, and incorporates the mounting brackets. I've no personal experience with using this panel, so I'll leave opinions to those who've used one. There are no commercially produced panels to deal with the vertical A-post sections, but once the body mounting area is reinstated, it's almost certainly easier to reconstruct the structure in-situ.

There are a number of difficult areas to repair on a Herald, this is one of them. Car magazines are very quick to describe the herald as an ideal beginners project. That's true as far as mechanical components are concerned, but the bodywork shouldn't be underestimated. Many 'restored' Heralds end up with poorly aligned bodywork through lack of preparation and observation during the restoration. Be methodical in recording measurements, if in doubt measure it and write down what you find.

Cheers,
Bill.

[Elma fud]

Hi Cyril! you have two alternatives one is a replacement bulkhead is it a saloon or convertible? if it's a saloon you may get hold of good 2nd hand one good convertible ones are like hen's teeth, but beware there are a lot of bodged up ones out there take mine for example a 'restored' one from ebay turned out like this! Your other alternative is to repair what you've got, look at the exploded views on canley's web site or rimmer;-)


Yes some one used a mig welder to do that!
So l bought two new floors total cost was about 120 including delivery from canley's, l ended up with this after l hade removed the rot! I made the chassis mounting but they are avaliable also 15-20 pounds each.

And this was the repaired floor, as mentioned before the complete floor panel does not include the metal that goes under the A pillar, l had to make that using the best side as a pattern.


So far my herald has gobbled up 2 3'x6' sheeta of 18 swg steel!!!, two door skin's, two tread plates, two front floor panels, two B pillar lower panels, bonnet front panel, two front wings, 2 D panels, two front inner panels, but only the front floors were new the rest were from abandoned restorations;-) so l saved a fortune, so keep you eye's peeled bargains do turn up, good luck with you project!!

[Paudman]

Chic Doig sells this entire assembly;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HERALD-VITESSE-F-BULKHEAD-BODY-MOUNTING-A-POST-ASSEM-/370108222505?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item562c2b4c29#ht_712wt_1165

As Herald16v says beware of sight-unseen replacements, a replacement convertible bulkhead I bought from a well-discussed supplier a few years back (he's gone now!) turned out to be a left-hand-drive saloon with no floors, the vendor cut them out to save weight. I kid you not. I'm debating sending my current one to Chic for a proper rebuild, even though carriage will be expensive. It may look ok in the photo but there is a lot of patching, some is only brazing. It will be nicer to know my feet won't drop through a poorly-repaired floor once on the move...  ;D

[Cyril_The_Herald]

Cyril The Herald

Woah ... I'm OVERWHELMED with your responses, clearly very giving with your time (writing, linking and photographing) so THANK YOU VERY MUCH !!!

Where to start???

Oggi - Thanks for your "starting" advice.  Tonight I have purchased points, rotor arm, dizzy cap, condenser AND coil.  Lets see how that goes.

And to ALL THOSE CONTRIBUTING, thanks for the advice on the rot. I THINK I'm dealing with a new floor pan and A Pillar.  This is going to be a challenge.  I'm looking forward to ripping off the bodywork, down to the chassis and re-building my mate, Cyril.

On Saturday,  Kelly is going to deal with the distributor, replace the coil and get oily whilst I watch (phwoooorh).

I'll keep you posted on progress.

Thanks again, Rich, Kelly, Daisy, Jacob, Ollie and Cyril.

www.ourtriumphherald.wordpress.com

[Matt Neale]

I've just ordered the bottom of the A post from Chic Doig.  I'll let you know how I get on welding it in.  It's the passenger side but a similar problem. I started out with no experience at all. I'm still very green but it is possible.

[Cyril_The_Herald]

Cyril The Herald

So today, following advice from Oggi, Kelly fitted new points, condenser, rotor arm, distributor cap and coil and... nothing :-(

Still, it was fun experimenting. Here's Kelly unhooking the battery (not sure why, Edd China tells you to on Wheeler Dealers so that's why I suppose).  So what next?  Well, Oggi suggests checking the 'earth strap' - Can anyone help with what one of those might be?

450 wrote:

If your trying to get it running first thing I would suggest as your getting fuel to the plugs (is the fuel new or old?) replace the points and condensor and rotor arm check the condition of the dizzy cap. They are all really cheap parts and the best place to start. If still no spark check the earth strap and replace the coil. I have been through all this recently with mine it's a process of elimination, mine ended up being the coil was on it's way out.

[Mark Hammond]

Where you based?

Mark

[Cyril_The_Herald]

Cyril The Herald

Hi Mark - We're based in South Milford near Selby.

[Oggi]

When I mentioned the earth strap I mean the one from the engine to chassis, which is located at the front of the engine and goes underneath and is bolted to the chassis via the steering rack mounts.

I take it you set the correct gap on the points when you installed them? 0.16 from memory but could be wrong. If you want to check for spark pull one of the spark plugs reattach the lead to the plug and hold it close to the block. PLEASE NOTE THIS IS HIGH VOLTAGE SO USE WELL INSULATED PLIERS TO HOLD THE PLUG. When you crank it over you should be able to see a spark running across the gap on the spark plug, if not its either the points arent set right, engine earth is poor or you havent got the low voltage lead attached to the distributor and coil.

Hope this helps

[dar]

if you have a spark stick some petrol down spark plugs and turn it over see what happens

[Cyril_The_Herald]

Cyril The Herald

Thanks Oggi for your advice.

450 wrote:

When I mentioned the earth strap I mean the one from the engine to chassis, which is located at the front of the engine and goes underneath and is bolted to the chassis via the steering rack mounts.

This 'earth strap' is gonna take some finding.  When I find it though, it'l be getting replaced!

450 wrote:

I take it you set the correct gap on the points when you installed them? 0.16 from memory but could be wrong. If you want to check for spark pull one of the spark plugs reattach the lead to the plug and hold it close to the block. PLEASE NOTE THIS IS HIGH VOLTAGE SO USE WELL INSULATED PLIERS TO HOLD THE PLUG. When you crank it over you should be able to see a spark running across the gap on the spark plug, if not its either the points arent set right, engine earth is poor or you havent got the low voltage lead attached to the distributor and coil.

Ummm.  We got a lot to learn.  gap on the points!?!?!  Out comes the Haynes Manual!

www.OurTriumphHerald.wordpress.com

[Cyril_The_Herald]

Cyril The Herald

Google is great!

Did some searching and found this site which gave me some useful info on how to set your points gap...

http://www.bosch.com.au/content/language1/downloads/Ignition_Parts_Web_Ready.pdf

Made the necessary changes to the points (set at 0.015in) and was so confident Cyril would fire up we did a video of it...

http://youtu.be/aY-i37gYqcc

:(

[Oggi]

Ahhh just had a look at your youtube moment. First thing that hit me is you dont appear to have a vacuum pipe attache from the distributor to the carb. Thats the cone shaped thing on the side of the distributor, there should be a pipe running from there to a similar point on the carb. No vacuum no start!! Secondly it might be worth going right back to basics and setting the static timing. There is a link somewhere on this site for a PDF of the Herald workshop manual. I have a copy but no idea how to upload it so if you drop me your email on a PM I will happily forward a copy.

Are you running neg or pos earth from the battery? this will determine which way round the leads go to the coil.

Earth strap is easy to find, stick your head under the front of the car and you should see a cable (probably very grotty) bolted to the bottom of the engine near the bottom pulley on the engine, follow that and you have both ends of the earth strap.

[mazfg]

Should still start without the vacuum pipe, this only comes into play when advancing ignition at higher revs which give increased vacuum. Whilst idling, if you ever remove this pipe you'll not notice much difference I dont think.