10CR 2015 Suggestions

[Deleted User]

A slight problem is that most folk aren't that into maps and will miss most of the best roads unless they are given instructions directing them.

I can just imagine the converstion.

"The Stelvio was amazing and so were the Gavia and the Vivone Passes!"

"What?  We were near the Stelvio?  And what's this Gavia and Vivone?  I can't find them on my 1 centimetre to 20 kilometre map!"

What about passing through Sospel on your way to the Med and missing the Col du Turini because you took the direct signposted route.

Some level of instruction will always be required.

It may be "Make your way to Jausiers then follow signs for the Cime de la Bonette (M64)".  Most people, I suspect, would struggle with that unless they had spent a good bit of time before the event marking out the route on an atlas or sat nav.

It's a difficult balance to produce a roadbook with enough information so that few folk get lost but, at the same time, not providing too much information so that you spend all your time with your head in a book counting junctions looking for your next road change.

In the past, I've tried to limit the number of junctions to be negotiated and keep to the same road as long as possible.

It's great for covering a long distance with the fewest navigational hassles but not so good when you're missing out on some excellent roads just off route that are complicated to access.

There's no easy solution, which is why I advocated a two tier event with an easier route and also a more hard core route for the more experienced.

With the hard core route, specific route instructions would still be given but, in addition, significant points along the route would be issued that the organisers wanted you to visit as the roads were worth driving over.  

If you wished, you could ignore the specific route instructions and just join the significant points together on a map and plan your own route.  How you got to the significant points would be your choice.

Just remember, prior to all 10CR's in the past, club members have recce'd the route to make sure that the route works and also that the roads are worth visiting.

No one, so far, seems to have realised the work that goes into providing crews with an enjoyable and memorable experience rather than just make your way from here to here with a dull motorway being the sat nav's choice.

A lot of thought goes into the 10CR to try to cater for as many people as possible and no one has any doubts that they're going to please all of the people all of the time.

I like to meet the guy who could.

Jim.

[Radders]

Can we stop this thread drift and go back to talking about girls breasts?  :)

[shedmonkey]

End of the day some people will want "guided tour" with route book etc and  some will want "adventure" off thier own bat and plan/investigate thier route months before setting off

Leave the two camps to it I reckon

[shedmonkey]

391 wrote:

Can we stop this thread drift and go back to talking about girls breasts?  :)

Sorry !

[thescrapman]

Were not the reasons for the control stops to try to limit the average speeds over sections. Same as the RBRR. Any official event needs to be tightly managed.

Also, lots of people want a "packaged holiday" rather than a dis-organised event. And if you have 160-odd people, organisation is imperative, you can't just turn up at a hotel and ask for 80 rooms.

Cheers

Colin

p.s .. Don it was just 2 passes this year.

[Raider]

thescrapman wrote:

Were not the reasons for the control stops to try to limit the average speeds over sections. Same as the RBRR. Any official event needs to be tightly managed.

Also, lots of people want a "packaged holiday" rather than a dis-organised event. And if you have 160-odd people, organisation is imperative, you can't just turn up at a hotel and ask for 80 rooms.

Cheers

Colin

p.s .. Don it was just 2 passes this year.

Even with 160 people it doesn't have to be over organised. You just say that we will be in a particular place and hotels or camping are up to each person to sort out.

So yes there can be two events.  One "package holiday" with ferries and hotels booked at a higher entry fee and another "turn up at the start see you in Nice" with lower entry fee but sort out your ferry, route etc yourself or with groups of others.

Meet up again at the finish with lots of different stories to tell.

Heck maybe the adventure one would be just the start and finish defined
Then we would here some tales of where people had been. Biarritz?  Well I'll beat that with Prague!

[shedmonkey]

Missions is sealed envelopes should be issued! "wear speedos for entire event....."!

[ferny]

The control points are handy for some (I include myself in this) as you have to sit down and plot the route on a map with your co-driver. It's a brilliant way to familiarise yourself and get an idea of the pacing required. However, the mandatory part of their existence does seem odd on such an event, as already said. I found myself hanging around before signing peoples otherwise I feared they'd not get a finishers award. But as we know you don't need to get them all filled in on the 10CR or RBRR to get the award now! Instead of calling them control points why not call them way points for the advised route which is all they are anyway and it stops people complaining about having to do a regimented route which is always only advisory?

[shedmonkey]

ferny wrote:

The control points are handy for some (I include myself in this) as you have to sit down and plot the route on a map with your co-driver. It's a brilliant way to familiarise yourself and get an idea of the pacing required. However, the mandatory part of their existence does seem odd on such an event, as already said. I found myself hanging around before signing peoples otherwise I feared they'd not get a finishers award. But as we know you don't need to get them all filled in on the 10CR or RBRR to get the award now! Instead of calling them control points why not call them way points for the advised route which is all they are anyway and it stops people complaining about having to do a regimented route which is always only advisory?

Really...?


    Quoted from thescrapman


    Andy

    I suspect a lot of the timings are being dictated by having to maintain suitable average speeds to comply with permits etc.

    After the "issues" on the RBRR a few years ago, the club needs to be careful.

    Cheers

    Colin



I fully appreciate average speeds etc and the work that goes into organizing an event - I helped mark up maps for all entrants on the 05 event  - but the route is not  mandatory nor the overnight halts as explained as per para 11 of the regulations -I have no intention of sticking to the published route - as like the views echoed by James in this post I want to enjoy myself within the event ,which I will

My question was why not tell us now where the halt is in Italy and Germany - is doesn't matter if you have finalized the route between those points or not  as people, can and will ,plot their own routes depending on circumstances -IE breakdowns,traffic, weather etc or the fact they don't want to knacker them selves out or they might want to challenge themselves etc the point being it becomes a choice - I would hate to think newbies to the event- and you always need newbies to keep clubs going- would feel pressured into doing something beyond their enjoyment zone


Unfortunately due to other commitments I will not be going with you next year. The 10CR has become my favourite CT event (favourite event of any kind actually) and just seems to have got better and better with time like most of the stuff we do, in a process of evolution rather than revolution. I shall miss being there and would ask you all to raise a glass to the four eyed, bearded, half Welsh g*t when you get to Rolduc for that now legendary de-brief.

Now with my official hat on, given that I'm currently the bloke with the sign on his desk which reads "The Buck Stops Here" as far as officialdom, particularly the MSA are concerned (not that I have a desk, or a sign actually, more an oil stain on a bench really but still, in a certain light .................. ) it is my painful duty to remind those of you who are considering going touring yourselves 'off route', that if you publicise, discuss in detail, advertise or formulate an 'unofficial route' you must do so elsewhere or by means of personal contact, phone calls, e-mails etc only. If you do so on or in any CT medium including this forum, the use of that route then becomes an event requiring a permit in order that we don't violate the terms of our MSA affiliation.

Needless to say we would not be able to organise or run any of the driving events which we do without the benefit of an MSA permit and the insurance cover which that affords and are not therefore willing to risk it. Equally perhaps, needless to say, if it starts looking like we might get lumbered with having to apply for permits to cover 'events' other than the one which we are actually running, that would end up with at least somebody being put in an awkward if not downright untenable position and as much as I love this club, I really don't want that person to end up being me.

If a group of people decide to go off on a trip seperately or together as individuals, that's entirely up to them even if most of them are members of this club and it's all fine and dandy. If it has been 'organised' here though, it isn't. Apologies for the sermon but I felt I had to say this.

[Tim Bancroft]

ferny wrote:

The control points are handy for some (I include myself in this) as you have to sit down and plot the route on a map with your co-driver. It's a brilliant way to familiarise yourself and get an idea of the pacing required. However, the mandatory part of their existence does seem odd on such an event, as already said. I found myself hanging around before signing peoples otherwise I feared they'd not get a finishers award. But as we know you don't need to get them all filled in on the 10CR or RBRR to get the award now! Instead of calling them control points why not call them way points for the advised route which is all they are anyway and it stops people complaining about having to do a regimented route which is always only advisory?

Since where did you read that you don't need to visit all the RBRR controls to get an award???

We make a an award to those who don't complete but show spirit. The route on the RBRR is advisory, as crews can use quicker roads between Controls to make up ant lost time. The route for the RBRR has been designed by Les Mills in the past and Nigel Abdullah to offer exciting roads for drivers. Some are almost transit roads (Motorways), but the majority are good to drive.

That comment undermines the RBRR.

[Deleted User]

Do the MSA have to be involved if in Europe? I thought they were UK only?

Forgive my ignorance

[Velocita Rosso]

bobyspit wrote:

Do the MSA have to be involved if in Europe? I thought they were UK only?

Forgive my ignorance

Affiliated to the FIA, world governing body

[Tim Bancroft]

MSA = UK only.

Gawd, McJim is right (That is something I never thought I would say), two events run concurrently would be ideal.

Me, I want something abit harder, more or less like the 2003 event but with a jolly at the end at Rolduc for example. If I want to go on the drink or to stay in a nice hotel, it'll be either the pub down the road or a nice holiday in the sun.

As CT has no resource to call upon in Europe, the event has to be loose

10CR Essentials:
1. Night driving on A type roads in Europe, absolutely the best thing about the 10CR.
2. One or two mountain passes.
3. Good company. No w*nkers thinking they are on the Monte Carlo Rally and driving without respect for other road users, and possibly ruining the good name of CT: Between the white lines, please!
4. Triumph cars (Sorry Andy P, I understand your comments about other makes of old car, but for this event it has to be for Triumph cars)
5. Challenging roads
6. A loose nature! Autoroute is crap, just give out way stations and times to be there-not too many though.
7. Not too much heat, Triumph cars and heat do not mix. I'd go later in the year, first w'end in October so as to alternate with the RBRR. Some have told me that passes like the Stelvio may be closed due to snow then?? Dip in the med-nah, take Bill Goodwin's advice!

Can't blame the Committee of CT taking on Martin's 2003 event and attempting to broaden its appeal, we spotted a way to retain or increase membership and took it.

I want an event that will be a challenge.

Glad that the RBRR's die was cast before I took the event on, no messing around.

I feel abit for the organisers of the 10CR, bit of a no win situation, but the 10CR is a much more democratic event so suggestions need to be considered.

[DGF]

I'm with Tim on that one about the RBRR.. on the one we did, can't remember which year ,RNLI,..we had to double back to pick up some friends that had fallen off a hill in scotland..we had to cut a couple of controls out to make brekkie in lands end..didn't expect to get a finishers ward but we did ..due to keeping the spirit of the event

[shedmonkey]

timbancroft61 wrote:

MSA = UK only.

Gawd, McJim is right (That is something I never thought I would say), two events run concurrently would be ideal.

Me, I want something abit harder, more or less like the 2003 event but with a jolly at the end at Rolduc for example. If I want to go on the drink or to stay in a nice hotel, it'll be either the pub down the road or a nice holiday in the sun.

As CT has no resource to call upon in Europe, the event has to be loose

10CR Essentials:
1. Night driving on A type roads in Europe, absolutely the best thing about the 10CR.
2. One or two mountain passes.
3. Good company. No w*nkers thinking they are on the Monte Carlo Rally and driving without respect for other road users, and possibly ruining the good name of CT: Between the white lines, please!
4. Triumph cars (Sorry Andy P, I understand your comments about other makes of old car, but for this event it has to be for Triumph cars)
5. Challenging roads
6. A loose nature! Autoroute is crap, just give out way stations and times to be there-not too many though.
7. Not too much heat, Triumph cars and heat do not mix. I'd go later in the year, first w'end in October so as to alternate with the RBRR. Some have told me that passes like the Stelvio may be closed due to snow then?? Dip in the med-nah, take Bill Goodwin's advice!

Can't blame the Committee of CT taking on Martin's 2003 event and attempting to broaden its appeal, we spotted a way to retain or increase membership and took it.

I want an event that will be a challenge.

Glad that the RBRR's die was cast before I took the event on, no messing around.

I feel abit for the organisers of the 10CR, bit of a no win situation, but the 10CR is a much more democratic event so suggestions need to be considered.

Wait a minute didn't I suggest exactly that when asked for input following the 09 and the 11 event? via the comps committee I sent plenty of emails - I still have the  original documents and emails I sent out -spread sheets  workings timings route etc  the drafts of simple tulips for busy intersections which bits to cut to catch up,I even suggested multiple start points in the UK - Northern,Notts,Essex etc at different times - a bit like the old monte- with a central rendezvous "breakfast" point on the continent
Bloody hacks me off "can we have ideas please but only from those we like" well stuff it
Hence me moving on

[Deleted User]

timbancroft61 wrote:

Gawd, McJim is right (That is something I never thought I would say), two events run concurrently would be ideal.

6. A loose nature! Autoroute is crap, just give out way stations and times to be there-not too many though.
7. Not too much heat, Triumph cars and heat do not mix. I'd go later in the year, first w'end in October so as to alternate with the RBRR. Some have told me that passes like the Stelvio may be closed due to snow then?? Dip in the med-nah, take Bill Goodwin's advice!

I feel abit for the organisers of the 10CR, bit of a no win situation, but the 10CR is a much more democratic event so suggestions need to be considered.

First, when was I ever right!

Second, Autoroute is great!  A great programme for planning event timings and mileages - far better than Google Maps.  Maybe not the best for a roadbook though.  Google Maps has the edge there.

First weekend in October is a non starter in the Alps.  Check the Stelvio thread.  I usually post when the Stelvio opens and, more importantly, when the snow closes it.  Last time the 10CR went up the Stelvio in the first week of September, the following weekend it was shut by snow as were most of the high Alpine roads.

Agree that 10CR organisers are in a no-win situation.

The 10CR doesn't have the history or the tradition of the RBRR.

Maybe that's not a bad thing.

It means that the basic framework of the event can be more flexible.

Raider's plan to have a touring route on the 2007 10CR may have been the way to go but was perhaps too early an option for the smaller number of crews taking part.  

Today, we are in a different position.

And now we have a healthy discussion on one of the Club's premier events.

It shows that we have recognised that some people have a problem with the event and that we are all quite willing to put in our views and opinions to move forward.

I, for one, haven't deemed any of the comments here as negative or critical of previous organisers but the honest opinions of Club members, that give us, as a club, the opportunity to offer something that appeals to more people than ever before.

A good discussion on here is always the sign of a healthy club with plenty of active members.

Other clubs must look at Club Triumph and the prestigious events that it puts on with envy.

Jim.

[heraldhabitat]

I have done just the two 10CRs and fully intend doing another before my health or funding cracks and i just enjoyed them, had a cracking time with old and new friends, it pushed the car and the crew. not to breaking point although the car did play up a couple of times. Looking forward now to see ewhat the next one does, whatever it is.

[Beans]

timbancroft61 wrote:

... Not too much heat, Triumph cars and heat do not mix. I'd go later in the year, first w'end in October so as to alternate with the RBRR. Some have told me that passes like the Stelvio may be closed due to snow then??

This picture was shot last week halfway up the Timmelsjoch, the snow border dropped to 1300 meters ...
If you want to do some Alpine passes early September is still your best chance.
But as ever with the weather no guarantees.

[Velocita Rosso]

beans wrote:

This picture was shot last week halfway up the Timmelsjoch, the snow border dropped to 1300 meters ...
If you want to do some Alpine passes early September is still your best chance.
But as ever with the weather no guarantees.

You `v`e not got stuck up there again ,Theo?

[Deleted User]

No, he's still there! :)

Jim.

[Andy Flexney]

As someone who was involved in organizing a few of the 10CRs I would like to give an insight into how it evolved over the years triggered by the suggestions we received after each run. To understand why it was done the way it was you have to understand there were always a couple of principles from the 2003 run we tried to adhere to:
1)     Max 4 days (turned into 5)
2)     The night drive through France (stop and look at the stars - fantastic)
3)     A challenge
4)     About 2000 miles Calais to Calais
5)     10 countries
After the 2003 run it was decided to do the last night in The Netherlands and eventually we got stuck at the Rolduc. This is itself made planning a route difficult but it appeared to be the wishes of the majority

As you can imagine it is difficult to follow the above principles, find exciting roads and design something new each time. In 2007 the challenge was getting to Slovenia some managed it, most including me did not. The input we got after 2007 run was “let’s go further south” so in 2009 the challenge was Andorra again in hindsight a mistake due to the traffic but it was a challenge and some teams did make it (I failed again). After the 2009 run lots of people said it would be great to do more mountain passes. I just happened to have a route which I had designed several years earlier which involved 33 mountain passes. Unfortunately 33 passes would take too long for a 10CR so it was redesigned to 20 passes in 2 days, which was also the challenge. The 2013 route, out of nostalgic reasons, was based on a mixture of the routes taken in 2003. Over the years the route was changed, things were added or taken away on hand of the suggestions received.

It is the prerogative of an organizer to ask for suggestions, use as much or as little as they want and ignore the rest but there were a couple of significant changes over the years which stem directly from comments and suggestions e.g.

    “Rolduc is fantastic let’s always finish there”
We did

    “we never see any of the teams apart from at the start and finish”
    “the social element is missing”.
The control stops and the 2nd hotel night were introduced

    “Why can’t we visit Riems”
    “If we are going to the South of France we should do the Col de la Bonette”
    “In 2013 we should re-visit the 2003 route “
2013 route

After 2011 I had thought that with the above constrains it would be difficult to do something new and exciting. Various options were looked at; one of my favorites was Scandinavia but ferries, time and costs were prohibitive. Going deeper into Eastern Europe is an option but has never been fully explored. My personal opinion is that the 10CR as it was conceived is dead and has to be taken to a new level which will mean it has to abandon the original principles and reinvent itself.

I wish the new organizers the best of British and please everybody else be gentle with them, it is not an easy job as you would find out if you were to volunteer to organize such a run.  ;)

AndyF

[Deleted User]

AndyF wrote:

if you were to volunteer to organize such a run.  ;)

AndyF

Seriously?

Thought that it had already been allocated.

Mmm.....

Good post though Andy.  Cleared up a few questions.

Jim.

[CharlieD]

As a relative latecomer to the 10CR (2011&2013) I have really enjoyed both events and really appreciated the effort and planning that goes into organising them. I found the 2009 an excellent introduction to long distance driving events which gave me a taster for what the RBRR was about before I went on the 2012 RBRR.
For me the reason for being of the 10CR is to complete the 10 countries, I don't want a driving holiday, I like the challenge of completing the 10 Countries, the mix of great driving roads, the stunning scenary and even the 3 hour "carpark" stop on the first night all add to the overall experience. Plus when you add to this is the evening/social element in my view it a format that works incredibly well and does need any drastic changes.
The only things I would change (which have been mentioned before in this thread) are to keep it to Thurs-Mon (the extra day puts extra burden on holiday allowances/finance) and to try and avoid having the event during the first week the schools go back - the following week would be better.
Good luck to you Mike! :)

[shedmonkey]

MWG445 wrote:

Seriously?

Thought that it had already been allocated.

Mmm.....

Good post though Andy.  Cleared up a few questions.

Jim.

Wall brick bang head

[JohnD]

Binman and I went on the 200? 10CR, and got so tired we had to take time out.  Ever since, I've argued that the old model was just too much for a two man team, so I'm delighted that CT has gone for a less arduous plan.   Having changed it, how about a radical change?  Not even TEN countries, just two, maybe three?

Calais to Madrid and back is 2000 miles.  The route could follow that of the Paris-Bordeaux-Paris race, the "First Grand Prix" in 1895, althouhgt th roads are so different now it might still afford a nostalgic feel.  The Pyranees offere many pass-storming opportunites, none as high as the Col d'Iseran or Stelvio, but still dramatic and appreciated by the cyclists.  See: http://www.velopyrenees.com/pyrenees_cols.htm especially the last, Col de Tourmalet.
Other points of interest that could then be included would be the Millau Viaduct, the Verdon Gorge and, of course, Le Mans!  Is Andorra still a duty-free zone?   All too far off a conventional 10CR route to be included.  I'm sure that someone more familar with Spain than I could sugegst some there too.  Perhaps the Circuit de Catalunya, Barcelona, home of the Spanish Grand Prix?

John